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GLOSSARY Kenya glossary |
transcript |
| Section 1 | What is your name? My name is Lois Chesiriken Psenjen. Psenjen is my husband. |
Where do you work? I was a civil servant in the Government but I retired in 1994. At the moment I am working as a co-ordinator with the electoral commissioner and this is what I have been doing since the end of last year. I had a resting period at home after retiring. |
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As a woman, how did you manage to work with the government? I give thanks to God because the government did not turn me down. When I went for the job, I began this particular job in a very low rank as a storeman, then as a secretary and lastly as a personnel officer and I have retired as a personnel officer. What I can say is that there is no gender division and the government does not look down on women. I remember we did several interviews with my fellow women and I was the first one to be chosen. |
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You qualified before you began working with the government? Yes. |
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Did you school in Mount Elgon? I undertook my primary school education in Kaptama, which is my village, and it is found in Mount Elgon. |
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Kaptama? Kaptama is in the eastern part of Kapsokwony. I schooled there from standard one to standard five. Then from standard six I schooled in Kaimosi. |
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Kaimosi Girls? It was known by then as Girls Boarding School (G.B.S) which was an intermediate school. I schooled there from standard six up to eight. Where I passed very well and I later joined Butere Girl Secondary School where I schooled from form one to form four. |
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Was Kaimosi Girls still a primary school? It was a primary school, I remember the teachers were very good once I started schooling there in standard six. |
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Why didn't you continue up to standard eight in Kaptama? In Kaptama, we were the first intermediate upper primary. We were the first lot to take another step from standard five in 1954. My teachers preferred that they take me to a boarding school – Kaimosi, since I was a good girl, so that I could pass successfully. This came to be true because amongst my fellow girls that I left behind not even one joined secondary school. It was actually advantageous to have been taken far from home. |
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| Section 2 | Does it mean that the standard of education there was not good? It was not all that good because it only had lower primary classes. |
As a civil servant in the government, what are your views concerning development matters in Mount Elgon? It has developed little by little because in other parts of Kenya, unlike in Mount Elgon, the missionary works led to rapid development, in for example education. I remember when I was going to school, some children were forcefully taken to school. Nevertheless some parents were good and co-operative. I thank my father who declared that he would educate the girls like the boys because we were five girls in our family. Therefore development has been here for a while, although it is still dragging behind because we have a transportation problem. |
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Yes. Our people also do farm but there is the problem of the transportation of their products to the market place. Schools have been built although secondary schools are still few in number. |
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Yes. But they have tried to improve education and farming. People have tried to plant various crops like coffee, tea, but the impassable road still remains a dilemma and also lack of factories to process the raw materials. This has forced farmers to take their raw materials as far as Transnzoia or Nandi. |
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Yes. But I hope that the Nyayo tea zone that owns some plots these sides will eventually help the farmers by repairing the roads to ease the transportation of tea to the factories. |
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What role is the government playing in order to improve the roads for easy produce transportation? The government has tried to put murrams (tough clayey gravel) on the roads. They have begun tarmacking the Kimilili/Kapsokwony road, and these roads are now in good order but on the side of Kaptama, they have begun putting murrams. |
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Yes. Even at Kopsiro, there is a good job being done which will benefit the public. But more improvements should be done on the roads to ease the transportation of farm products, and travelling to schools because some people school far away and if there were town centres or stations where vehicles could be picked up, they could indeed benefit. |
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| Section 3 | On the subject of the clashes in 1991 - 1992 could this have led to a retardation of development or what could you comment on the clashes between Bukusu and Sabaot? That is a hard question because during the clashes I was still working away from home and I really do not know what was the cause. During that period I did not see much, but people said in the newspaper that they demanded to be given a district, but I really cannot tell what initiated the clashes. |
Yes. It seems the Sabaot have taken over those who practised farming and did some business. There are a few shops that have not opened yet but most of them have been opened up here at Kapsokwony. Although I have seen a few shops, which are still closed and there is no development going on. |
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Yes. Business in the shops at Kaptama is doing quite well and I do not think there are any problems in the other sides. Cheptais is presumably okay, as they do not have any obstacle concerning farming and business. |
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Yes. The public has now picked up this kind of job. Maybe it was problematic during 1991-1992 when there were rescuers who did help those who had problems but now things look okay. |
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Are there any youth groups and women groups that come together for a mutual benefit? There are women groups. In the past we had mothers who found it difficult to come together because their husbands thought that women's groups were the root of evil that would cause chaos in their families. |
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Yes. Those mothers who still have restricting husbands shows that the woman is not trustworthy. |
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Yes. Therefore, the husbands were very suspicious, and thought that they coming together was not a good idea. But at the moment, I bet they have realised the benefits and the good fruits of Maendeleo ya Wanawake (local NGO addressing women’s concerns) through the putting up of houses, and the collecting of money to buy cattle for all houses involved in the group. |
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Yes. When in difficulty, they opt to join women groups in order to get assistance. There are benefits brought by women groups and it is not like in the past where old men had a negative view of it. They now prefer it to help mothers and their entire families. |
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Yes. There was another question you asked, I think on youth groups. This is the time they have just begun registration, as it has not been active yet. They have registered in one project that was started by the project managers. |
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| Section 4 | In your own view, do you think most women in Mount Elgon have been made aware of the modern family planning? I think so because there are some members who have been employed by family planning organisation to teach mothers during meeting headed by the assistant chief and in their own convenient places. |
Yes. I have seen some mothers telling us more about family planning in meetings. But it's not widely known since there are some that have heard about it but they don't accept it as they still hesitate. |
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Yes. Do you know this modern family planning according to our traditions. |
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Traditions. There is a traditional family planning that does some job after some period but I am not informed on how they normally do it. |
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Yes. Yeah, but they mostly depend on the modern family planning. |
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Could you recall how the traditional family planning was done? I really do not know because even those who know it do not talk about it. But what I know is that they normally use it on a person who then stays for some time before expecting. I had a friend who stayed for ten years after using the traditional method but unfortunately she got pregnant and she has never gone for modern family planning. |
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Yes. When she got pregnant, she could not tell what had happened even after using the traditional method. It shows that it was working but not perfectly. According to our culture, family planning issues were not supposed to be spoken about openly in a meeting. They were considered private and indecent. |
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Yes. Sometimes people fear making it public because, they may help someone use the traditional method and they may end up being barren. |
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Do girls here in Mount Elgon get the same chances of education as boys? To say the truth, boys are given first priority especially when school fees are scarce, although I cannot tell the exact number of girls in schools. Most parents do this because the girls will automatically get married. |
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Yeah. The men who would marry her would assist her in the future, thus giving priority to boys’ education. |
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| Section 5 | Yes. This is done especially when joining secondary schools than in primary. |
Yes. Yeah. |
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Is lack of school fees the only cause or are there some other causes? School fees at the moment are the major factor because most families are polygamous, thus have many children. This makes the parents unable to raise enough money to educate all their children. This then leads to neglecting girls. |
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Yeah. It is mostly due to lack of enough money. |
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Yes. Very few parents can ignore girls’ education when there is money. |
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Yes. Yeah. |
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Could the circumcision period also make girls drop out of school? Not much because when circumcision is practised on girls, it is normally done during the holidays when schools have closed down. By the time schools open they will be out of seclusion. |
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What I mean is that, could a girl see herself as a mature person ready for marriage after circumcision and therefore terminate her studies? This does not apply to girls as they always go back to schools. Very few can do that because I know it is due to lack of school fees. |
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Yes. There are some that are forced into marriage. I remember recently a case, where the headmistress of Kibuk Girls helped one girl out of marriage after the parents had forcefully led her into marriage. |
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Yes. She took the girl back to school last year in her fourth form. She then got a mean grade of 'C' that she could then dream of if she still stayed with her husband. Most girls know that it is not advisable for a girl to get married after circumcision but should continue with her education. Nevertheless, there are still a few who are be cheated by other boys into getting married instead of suffering with education. |
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As a civil servant in the government would you be able to mention problems experienced in Mount Elgon, like maybe lack of hospitals? Here in Mount Elgon we still lag behind in development concerning hospitals. We still have not developed because we do not even have a district hospital in our new district. In the available hospitals, very few wards are available. This has made most of the parents with complications be referred to Misikhu, Kitale or Lugulu away from here. |
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| Section 6 | Yeah. We have problems on the side of hospitals. Those we have, have not been expanded and fully equipped to serve their patients. It would be better if they could be expanded. We also have a mission centre in Kaptama that is trying its best although it is just as small as this one in Kaptama. |
Yes. No operation is done here as many are referred to other areas. We also have a transportation problem on the Kopsiro/Kapsokwony route. There is not even a single vehicle. |
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Yes. Someone can die on the way to different hospitals as not all can handle all the cases. This happens because they lack enough equipment. At times people lack money to foot the bill, so the patient is taken back home to die eventually. |
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Yes. Yes, backwardness of hospitals is still a problem for us. |
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Do you have access to water or is it a problem too? People still travel far to get water in the rivers, apart from those whose health has improved due to the provision of pumped water at various centres. |
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Yes. The ministry of Water Development has not spread out so much just like the town council. The water mostly available are those belonging to community projects which are advised by various people. The money the community uses as funds is got from Kapsokwony town. This is through charging each individual to contribute towards the borehole construction. |
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Have there been projects like the water project that have been established here in Mount Elgon? The people in charge of water projects can talk more on that since I do not know much about it. Nevertheless the two secondary schools of Kibuk and Kapsokwony use water provided by the community. The two schools have been having a problem of untreated water, but at the moment it is treated by the community water development association. |
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Yes. I have seen some water centres that are not treated but I still say that the water development people should expand on this as I know less. |
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In your own views, what do you think must be done to increase the women groups? Yes…in the past men used to restrict their wives from joining these groups. Since the nomination of women groups leaders, there have been several meetings in which mothers are taught on the aims and benefits of the women groups. They therefore have plans to improve even more so that mothers become independent. |
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Yeah. The women groups will help mothers greatly through the contributions they make or from donors or NGOs, they can give them some credit like in farming, water provision and cattle rearing. Since the officials have been elected, mothers will learn more in order to improve their homes and families and a community as a whole. More so, many mothers do attend meetings headed by assistant chief or chiefs. Still some people do not go because they have to graze their cattle. As per now they air their views and problems so that their group leader/representative is able to present them to respective authorities and more women groups will be formed. |
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| Section 7 | Yes. Yeah. |
Who does more work between a husband and a wife? It is obvious that a wife does more because she has to care for the children by feeding them, looking after them when they are sick, going to the farm to weed and dig, milking cows and looking after them, and more so all the household chores and these are heavy duties. People do still take beer here. |
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Beer? They take traditional brew called busaa. Once a man has gone to search for it, by the times he will be back, the wife will have cooked food. After feeding he leaves home to loiter while the mother still has to work. |
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We can therefore conclude that a mother does more work than the father. She has so much to be done in that she cannot attend women group meetings. Indeed, that is the barrier especially those who do not have maids, that are only free during school holidays when their children do give a hand. They can also be free during the weekends. |
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Yeah. The heavy duties do prevent her from attending meetings. She must prepare food for her school children to come and eat. By the time they will be going to the meeting it will be almost ending, and thus they will lose a lot. |
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Is there any other kind of work men can do as women are also working or do they spend most of the time drinking? I am sorry it is not drinking alone, although I have put much stress on beer. Here in Mount Elgon, men perform duties like building a house, slashing around the house, roofing a house, while wives do the smearing of floors with cow dung. A man also helps a wife by playing his role. That is digging a pit latrine in a home and digging a shamba (garden) and weed maize or any other food. |
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Is there an NGO that has been brought in Mount Elgon? Yes ActionAid, which is situated in Kapsokwony. |
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And? There are not any others known to me. |
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How has ActionAid tried to help you people? They have put murrams on the Kimilili/Kapsokwony road, although they have not done it anywhere else. Whenever a family or a community begins a project, the ActionAid group comes in to improve the project that has already been started. They have also helped in distributing books to various schools. The projects they have started are very few. |
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| Section 8 | Yes. During a meeting headed by the assistant chief, one of the workers with ActionAid said that they would give out tools for use in road construction and bridge construction. Jembes and all required tools could be given out so long as there was a store for them and a person in charge of distribution and collection of tools. |
Could we then say that ActionAid do not help the physically handicapped, those who lack enough food, those with various problems and the sick? Oh, I am sorry I cannot elaborate more on that because I have not stayed for long with them. I was away working and it is in 1995 that I came to Kapsokwony. I really do not know what exactly they have been doing. |
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Yes. Although I remember a mother who had a child born without hands. During the operation the stitching was done but the intestines were misplaced. This mother was in a dilemma. So one of the women in this district went to her home in Kopsiro and later reported it to the ActionAid. They agreed to help the child by repeating the operation and stitching process. |
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Yes. Yes. |
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Therefore you did work here in Mount Elgon? No, no, I did not work from here, I operated from Nairobi. |
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Nairobi? And Nakuru. |
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Okay. I was working in Nairobi and Nakuru. I have been home for a short period. |
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Yes. I know very little. |
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Yes. I do not know much. |
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Yes. Yeah. |
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I am surprised that most of us women fear to work with the government, I think it is because we fear. It is possible even at this moment. |
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| Section 9 | How did you manage to enter the government and what could other women do in order to work with the government? Most women fear going for such jobs as they feel that they should have someone to assist them to get those jobs. But this is not the case. When I completed my fourth form, I looked for a job and I finally got it. The first place to work at was in prisons and there were very few African women. I was referred to the prison by a certain woman who also filled my forms, and I began working. |
Yes. Eventually the government managed to send me to train as a personnel officer, in 1960 and I completed it in a few months. Then in 1967 I was promoted as Personnel Officer III. |
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Yes. That time I was a Personnel Officer III and I went on with the training, which was sponsored by the Government. This course was for advance Personnel Officer. Then after three years there was an advertisement for the post of Personnel Officer II. I applied for it and later went for the interview with others and I got promoted. Later I did part one and two of the Act of Public Secretaries. |
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Yeah. There was an advertisement of the Personnel Officers part two. They said they wanted a person who had undertaken a certain course to work for some time. I applied for it and I was considered together with my colleagues. |
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Yes. I was sent abroad to take a three months course in the Oxford College. This was called Management Centre. |
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Yes. After three months I came back and another advertisement came up, I applied and I have continued like that. I had no fear at all. At first I was alone, but after three years some other women got promotions too, and some women came directly from the universities. At the moment the number of women as Personnel Officers and in the commission is rising. |
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Yeah. I think at first they were a bit fearful but at the moment I think every one is able to compete with one another. There were not many women working as Personnel Officers, but afterwards when we kicked off the ball, many felt they could also do such jobs. Even at the moment, we have accountants, educationalists, engineers, and even architects. |
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Yes. Therefore, I think women are not afraid of anything nowadays. They are aware of their rights to compete since interviews are not for choosing only a particular kind of person. |
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Yes. Now, the public Service Commission is responsible for giving out jobs. |
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| Section 10 | As a Personnel Officer what were your duties? I was serving people mainly on employment and retirement. I was the one to process people's documents teaching them how that particular job will be carried out, if one needs to go to college, giving out assignments, issuing out transfers to other places, if at all the person is able. Therefore the work of a Personnel Officer was generally to serve other civil servants. |
Yes. Those civil servants whose rank is below yours whenever one is sick. Permission and other necessities are done, issuing leaves. When one wants to retire. It is the Personnel Officer's duty to assist him to get the benefits. There are some instead of the benefits they are referred to N.S.S.F (National Social Security Fund) by the Personnel Officer. |
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What could you tell cowardly women like us? Oh, they should not get worried and fearful, but to be on the front line on anything advertised on the newspapers. They should apply to be considered, but not fearing that so and so will see me so long as you have got all your certificates. |
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Yes. One should try and have confidence in being able to win, as there is no obstacle since all men and women's brains are equal. |
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Yes. Yeah. |
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Are there any missionary schools in Mount Elgon? Missionaries have not been here for a long time. In the past no missionaries came here to Mount Elgon although they did sponsor some churches to be built. An example is Kaptama Primary School that was sponsored by friends known as Quakers that were at Kaimosi. There is also Kibuk School that was sponsored by Catholics. The very missionaries have not stayed there although there is a catholic father who is in charge of the church. He is the sponsor of both Kibuk primary and secondary school. |
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Yes. Therefore the Roman Catholic and SDA (Seventh Day Adventist). The SDA has sponsored Kapsokwony Secondary School but it was later on taken over by PAG. I really do not why. There is a hospital at Kaptama that I think was started by missionaries. There is another health centre at Kopsiro. These are initiated by the whites but where they normally meet is what I have not discovered. |
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May be since your childhood your parents might have briefed you on how Mount. Elgon is and how they see it. Do they have any significance for it or do they just see it as a mere mountain? The very mountain or there at home? |
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| Section 11 | Do they see Mount Elgon as having any significance or is it just a mountain? A mountain in our language is known as teriet, which is found at home. When the Sabaot came to Kenya, I have heard that they passed down the slopes of Mount Elgon. They began living down there in Bungoma and then they slowly began coming up. There were no people around here. Later some crossed the mountain and went to Sebei, and some came from Transnzoia. I do not think there is more to say on the mountain as some people say that their God stays there. Our people face East whenever they worship God. |
Yes. Those who did not know about Christianity, always faced where the sun rises every morning. |
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Not Mount Elgon? To the rising sun and not to Mount Elgon to worship and thank their God. They would then say that God should take care of them during the whole day but not to say any importance of Mount Elgon. |
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Have you not had any fears of Mount Elgon? Me? |
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Yes. I do not fear and I have never gone there (to the peak). |
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And? It is near home but I have never gone there. There are people who have travelled there. The Ndorobo people do stay there. Not long time ago, there were old men who did stay in the caves of Mount Elgon. |
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The caves! There are people who have even stayed there with their cattle and left the place later. I do not think there is any outlet in the mountain to Webuye but they can use an outlet to Transnzoia. But I do not fear going there. |
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Are there wild animals as some people have said? Yes, people have gone to the forest and still there are elephants found in an open space after the forest. I have not gone there but that is what we are normally told; that in the middle is the forest animals like elephants and buffaloes are found with an exception of lions. We do not fear going there but the only problem is that you might take long to reach there since the roads are in poor conditions. |
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Which kind of church dominates here? Around here? |
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Yes. To be sincere, I have not investigated which church has more converts. I have attended the S.D.A church only and not the Catholic. But it seems most of them are Catholics because they [feel their relaxation during some months?]. Catholics are not yet committed Christians. Therefore people do think that by being a Roman Catholic they will go on smoking cigarettes, drinking beer and I think this has taken a big number of the population. There are restrictions according to the Bible that other denominations put in consideration making the follower to be few in number. But still I have not compared the followers in all the churches. There are even some new churches where they worship in schools, as they have no church build. |
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| Section 12 | Yeah. In a class where the teachings take place on Sundays. Those who worship in classes I know are Pentecostal churches. |
Yes. I heard of a man called Elijah Masinde with his faction of Dini ya Musambwa. I really do not know what was being done there. That has not been in Mount Elgon it was practised in Bungoma. |
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Bungoma? The people of Bungoma especially those in Kimilili, where these movements were carried out but it has not reached up these sides. The faction is still there although Masinde died, his followers still continue with the religion. I have heard but never seen what the followers do as it has never happened here. |
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What significance does circumcision have in your families? In Mount Elgon? |
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Yes. Among the Sabaot do you ask for girls or boys circumcision? |
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All. To both, it showed maturity, meaning |
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One has attained maturity. When one is circumcised after reaching a certain age one will have left all childish behaviour and joined the adulthood. I do know whether it is called attaining or being ready. |
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Yeah. That is the time a boy can be allowed to marry but in the past marriage took time. Since both are old now the girls get married while the boys do marry. At the moment children marry at a very young age but because of schools, they do not marry immediately. Circumcision showed a sign of maturity and this was a universal significance. |
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So you circumcise both girls and boys? Due to seminars held against women’s circumcision many girls are now against it, but there are some that feel that they should be circumcised. Some refuse because they are now old enough and have known that their circumcision has no meaning. Those who are clever have agreed with their parents not to do so. Boys actually do look down upon those girls who are uncircumcised. |
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Yes. Or that she will be married outside the ethnic group as an alternative. Those who are scared of not getting a husband are those who still get circumcised, but the clever ones see it as useless so long as their parents are also not for it. Although in 1991 to 1992, boys began circumcising uncircumcised girls forcefully. |
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| Section 13 | Yes. It happened shortly where even Bukusu that had been married to Sabaot were circumcised forcefully. |
Circumcised...Oh! Oh! They had children even up to three or more but I think most people have been seeing it as of no use especially the S.D.A church that is trying to ban female circumcision. The S.D.A church is trying to make parents and girls see that there is no importance in circumcision. |
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Yes. Yeah. |
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At what age do candidates come up to be circumcised? They are normally circumcised at the age of 14 to 16 years even at 18 years old. Although at 18, one will be too old for that. By the way since I came back home, I have never seen, girls being circumcised. Last holidays, they sang their songs to only the boys but mostly it was the Bukusu who were coming to call upon their relatives here. But I have not seen any girls practising it. Still the process is carried out at the age of 12 to 13 according to a child's age; as their are some children who grow very fast and some slowly, thus affecting the body size. Even boys are circumcised when they are 14 to 16 years old. |
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Yes. Yeah. |
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You said that they go into seclusion after circumcision? They stay in seclusion which was practised in the past but nowadays, there are no complications like in the past where they could be taken far. Boys lived in their own house far away and they could be put on skins. They could stay in seclusion for even several months. At the moment, a very short period is taken due to schools |
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What do they do during the seclusion period? In the past, this was the time to learn what a man/woman should know. According to the traditions, boys are taught to behave when they are married. Girls are taught in seclusion how they will cook, how to behave as a mother, how to feed their husbands and children and how to relate to their neighbours. This period is mainly for educating on how to live and feed the children. One is taught to leave childish behaviour and adopt adult behaviour. |
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Now that the seclusion period is not seriously taken, how are these candidates taught those teachings? It is now the parents’ duty to teach them how they shall look after their children. It is not a must that they must be in seclusion. Christians have also helped in the teachings. Schools also play a role in teaching on how one is supposed to stay at home, how one should carry out a wedding, how one can cook, and how to peacefully stay with the family. I think things are now okay. In the past, it was grandmothers that stayed with the children but it does not happen nowadays. Educated parents think that if their children stay with their grandmothers, they won't go to school to be educated. This is now a big problem making them not stay with their grandchildren |
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| Section 14 | Yes. Yeah. |
Do candidates just come from the house to be circumcised or is there something to be done? There are songs and dances done the whole day. They go calling upon their relatives and neighbours. As they go home, they do sing the whole night until dawn and then circumcise during the morning hours. The candidate will have done something like an exercise of which I am not sure. As the drum beats, they also jump to its rhythm. They then go to the river in the morning and when they come back that is when they are circumcised outside their homesteads. |
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Yes. Yeah. |
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Can any meaning be drawn from the songs that are sang during circumcision ceremonies? For circumcision? |
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Yes. Could you get their meanings? Yes, during my time, you know it is long since I have been at home. In the past, these songs were meant to encourage a candidate to have confidence, give him/her strength in order to remain firm and to avoid panic so that the candidate loses hope of running away. It is very shameful for both girls and boys to jump during the operation, because even the food and beer that was prepared would be thrown away. Therefore a candidate's confidence increases with the songs. |
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Yes. Could you be in a position to remember one or two songs? Oh! Oh! Oh! For sure it is a long time since I can remember even a single song. I have never been a soloist but only joined a chorus. I remember responding in the 1950s. Yes. |
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Among the Bukusu's Italians were mentioned in their circumcision songs, that they should be captured. It seems there were Italians. Those days? |
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Yes. Could they have also come around here and they formed some songs concerning them? No! No! I cannot remember. |
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You cannot remember. I cannot remember how it was because I did not come back home immediately. I schooled in a boarding school and I never came back to join in the ceremony. I have been working away from here and this has made me unable to remember any song. Unless I call upon someone to sing us a song. But the way songs are sang nowadays is not the same as when we used to sing, |
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| Section 15 | Yes. You can hear a Sabaot song sounding similar to a Bukusu one. The Sabaot rhythm was a slow one but they now sing so fast. For we the Bukusu it's similar, apart from the words. |
Yes. Yeah. |
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Have there been any intermarriages between the Sabaot and the Bukusu? Some have mixed where some Sabaot have married Bukusu and vice versa. There are few Teso. I think they copy from their neighbours by bringing in songs quite different from the past ones we used to sing. If you had informed me earlier enough I could have remembered some. |
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Okay. I have completely forgotten them because of my work and my commitment as a Christian. |
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Yes. Could there be people staying in the bushes? Our people. |
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Yes, maybe there are some people who stay there. Maybe they guard the forest. You know there was a time when some Sabaot migrated from Chebiuk and went to settle in a forest that they hadn't been given permission to use. They did some farming there but later they were accused for having done that. At the moment, the government is searching for a resettlement place for them. The government wants to preserve the forest and it is not a place for people to build houses and stay. |
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Not staying in a house what of the thieves? There was a time we were told that thieves came from the forest to steal cattle or to break into shops and steal all the available goods. In 1991-1992, we had thieves from Uganda but none was caught. Then later it was mentioned that the Sebei from Uganda were the cattle raiders. After 1991-1992, it was said that young men who were used to getting meat from the bush could be the ones who came to steal cattle from us and sell them. But we do not know whether they stay in the forest. I tend to think that it just young men who organise to steal cattle at night to slaughter for consumption or selling |
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Yes. But settling in the forest in order for the people to steal then go home. The administration will dwell on this as they would know more since there are policemen that patrol the forest. They could have arrested some already. |
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Do the Pan Paper people (those working at a large paper milling factory) obtain their timber from the forest or any other place? They could only pick pine trees from the forest if it is there. They have been doing this but I do not know if they are still doing that again. The Ralphy Company is the one that has a permit to cut some trees that are then taken to Eldoret. Ralphy people are common these sides and I do not know whether they are still there for Pan Paper. Places like Timboroa area and Transzoia, there are pine trees but I think people in charge of the forest could know more but I have not seen those seeking pine trees coming here. The Ralphy Company collects elephant teak since they have got a permit. |
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| Section 16 | Do these people plant crops? Sabaot? |
Yes, those settling in the slopes… Here or up to the mountain? |
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Not the very mountain top. Those who plant crops, how do they transport their produce to the consumers? That is what I had told you earlier that transport is by use of donkeys because the roads are in bad condition. |
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Donkeys? It is donkeys that transport their products like Irish potatoes, vegetables, maize from the mountain down the slopes. You know they have to take them up to Kimilili or Cheptais to sell them. Some from the mountain take them to Cheptais. Some bring goods using donkeys here on market days because vehicles are never seen there. Donkeys are mostly used and they even bring charcoal. Donkeys are a common means of transport since our roads are in bad condition. Those sides are rocky and mountainous and the Matatu people can not reach there. |
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Do those people use fertilisers on their farms? Some parts of Mount Elgon are naturally fertile because it has a lot of waste matter. Therefore, there is no need to use artificial fertiliser, which are used on only exhausted land. |
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Yes in you own view, what really made people fight during the land clashes? I explained earlier that I really don’t know how it began. When in primary I schooled with Bukusu at Kaptama, but we didn't have any differences until those clashes. You know the old people had no problems, and they could intermarry. There comes a new generation and things take a new leaf. What was said in the radio and newspapers was that the people wanted to be recognised. |
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They wanted to be known. To be known and to be recognised that there are certain people who stay in a place and they are known as Sabaot. They said that they were very tired with the Bungoma people but I really do not know how these clashes began. I really do not know at that angle. |
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