GLOSSARY
Kenya glossary

Samuel

(KENYA 15A)

Sex	Male
Age	90
Identity	Sabaot
Occupation	Retired court judge
Location	Chepkarai
Date	27 November 1996

transcript

Section 1	You were the court president? Yes, for 30 years. I began in 1937 and stopped in 1962.
	Oh, just before Independence? Huh. When independence from the colonialists came, then I stopped.
	OK. OK. Then we began our Kenyatta era. Then those of his era were the ones who now became the magistrates.
	Is your home here in Kapsokwony or...? Yes, our home is here in Kapsokwony. I've been here for a long time.
	Were you born here? Chepkarai.
	Chepkarai? This is the Chepkarai area.
	OK. And what year were you born? 1907.
	1907? Huh.
	Eh! And you're like a young man with all his strength. Eh.
	OK. Alright. And sir, what did you tell me your name was? Samuel Naibei Kimkung.
	Samuel Naibei...? Kimkuu.
	Kimkuu. OK. My father was Kimkuu.
Section 2	OK. Kimkuu? Yes.
	And, what tribe are you? I'm a Sabaot.
	You're a Sabaot? Before, we were called Elgon Maasai by the colonialists.
	OK. And where did this name Elgon Maasai come from? Elgon Maasai - in the past we lived with Maasai in the whole of the Webuye area, in this whole region.
	OK. It was just Maasai - no other tribes had come here.
	OK. Yes. And when the Maasai left, when the white man came and saw that the Maasai buildings and our buildings here in Elgon were the same, he said, “You are the same as the Elgon people, and you are the same as the Maasai.” And the white man said, “You are Elgon Maasai, because all your customs are like the Maasai.”
	Ooh. Yes, behaviour, way of life, all like the Maasai. And that is how the name Elgon Maasai came. The Elgon people are Maasai. Yes.
	AND DO PEOPLE THINK THAT THE MAASAI AND THE SABAOT CAME FROM THE SAME SOURCE? In the past, they were together in Uasin Gishu at the Nzoia River. That is what divided us. And we call that river Kivovo. We call that river Kivovo, and the area Mwaibere.
	OK. Mwaibere? Hehee. And the whole of Eldoret had Maasai. This whole region until Kitale was Maasai. Even Uasin Gishu Maasai. Yes, Uasin Gishu, Maasai. And below them the Nandi Chamwal.
	CHAMWALI? It is called Chamwal.
	OK. Hehe, yes.
	OK. ALRIGHT. SO YOU WERE TELLING ME THAT YOU WERE THE COURT PRESIDENT...? Yes.
	WHICH COURT WAS THIS? African Judge, just like present-day judges.
Section 3	Huh. That African court…the president of the African court was myself. The head of the court, like a judge. But I had three other old men, with a vice [president] from Kimilili.
	SO, WAS THIS AFRICAN COURT IN KIMILILI? It was in Kimilili.
	OK. WHAT REGION WAS IT FOR? Region ...?
	WHAT, I MEAN, WHAT...WHAT AREAS DID IT SERVE? Kimilili, Elgon Maas...Elgon. Mount Elgon and Kimilili. An area with two chiefs.
	OK. OK. And Mriba, Bukusu, and Elgon Maasai all of us. And we were all one court. Yes.
	OK. NOW, HOW DID YOU GET...GET INTO THIS WORK? At first I was a teacher with the Friends (Quakers), and I was a teacher for a few years, and then in 1929 I became the chief's clerk.
	OK. SO YOU LEFT TEACHING? I left teaching and became the chief's clerk.
	AND HOW DID YOU BEGIN TEACHING? 1925, 1926, 1927, 1928, and then I became the chief's clerk.
	OK. Yes. And I continued with that work. The chief was taking cases of fighting, collecting hut tax, and collecting debts of cows, and he took criminal cases. And then the government felt that it wanted the court to just deal with debts to the chief. Your work would be to pay hut tax...to make sure people paid government hut taxes. And so that's how it was. Yes. Then they chose me as the clerk because we also knew how to write, along with the other old men. Before, the president had even been someone who was illiterate. So long as he listened to the cases, passed judgement, and wrote a fine.
	SO YOU WERE THE FIRST LITERATE PEOPLE? The very first in this Mount Elgon.
	AND WHAT LANGUAGE DID YOU WRITE IN? Just in Kiswahili.
	OK. Just in Kiswahili. We used Kiswahili because there were Bukusu, Teso, every tribe. And what brought us together was Kiswahili. That's how it was. And then I was the clerk. When I left, the other old men were too afraid to do it because the others loved only to sit in the court and collect hut tax and taxes. They said that Chief Tendet should only collect the hut tax and all the debts. Then the old men chose me to be the president, to chair it because I had been a clerk. And the first presidents, whom we took over from, ran away.
Section 4	WHY WERE THE OTHER OLD MEN AFRAID? They were afraid because we had Chief Mtara, Chief Tendet, Suti, and down here, Jeremiah. Four chiefs, one for each location. Each location had its own president… each location its own president. So when they chose me here, while I was a clerk, to be the first president (of the court combining the four locations), they left and refused, saying, “We don't see why they have combined four locations to be one place...and we have to rule from Kapchai.”
	SO THEY DIDN'T WANT TO GO THERE? They didn't want to go there. They said, “I have many cows and goats, why should I go there? Let this Samuel go because he is a clerk and he also knows Kibukusu.”
	AND DIDN'T YOU THINK ABOUT YOUR COWS OR GOATS? WHAT MADE YOU DECIDE TO CHOOSE THAT POST? I knew about development, and it would benefit me.
	AND DID YOU ACTUALLY FIND THAT IT BENEFITED YOU? It benefited me because after I was elected president, I continued with that work, and then I refused Kapchai. I told the government that Elgon and Kimilili - those locations should be one court. And that Bukusu and Malakisi be joined to become one court.
	SO THEY DIVIDED UP (THE REGION RULED FROM) KAPCHAI? Yes. And I returned to Elgon.
	OK. And I began my own all committee while Suti and Mtaro continued (to be ruled from) Kapchai. Three locations. And they began complaining that, “What do we want? That Tendet and Mtaro be one location.” And we entered the Kimilili court. There is a brick court there, with my long seat still there. It's still there. I would wear red clothes and take cases. I would pass judgement and jail them for years. Hehe...And I made people out there behave...until they became as they should be. When the colonialists left, that's when they required...and this young man [pointing to his son] was a clerk in Busia. He came to be a magistrate and took over my seat. What good fortune. He came and sat in that seat.
Section 5	AND HIM…ARE YOU THE ONE WHO TAUGHT HIM MATTERS ON BEING A MAGISTRATE OR... DID HE LEARN...HOW DID HE ENTER THE FIELD? When he finished school...they needed some court clerks. So he was selected from Kimilili. So he became president and then he became the clerk. So he worked in one court, while I worked as a clerk in another court.
	OK. AND THIS PRESIDENT WORK, DID THEY...WERE YOU TRAINED THERE OR WERE YOU JUST USING THIS...? We used our inborn intelligence. We didn't have anything else.
	AND THIS INTELLIGENCE, TRADITIONALLY...HOW DID YOU GET IT? The inborn one?
	Yes. Like this intelligence that you used. Intelligence follows a family lineage. A certain family is that one, which sits...helps people in community matters. Like if I come here and I talk, I can say, “this person is capable of doing this specific work in the community.” Yes.
	OK. So in your home... Eh...Yes, so he is following my blood. That's how come he became a magistrate after I left.
	And this...this intelligence that you were using... That is inborn intelligence.
	INBORN? Yes, inborn, not taught.
	Now traditionally, even if a mother or father taught a child to become intelligent, sometimes a child could be born with little intelligence and then it increases... There is luck. If you were a girl in the past, if they want you to get married, they would measure which home has intelligence.
	Ooh. Like you, they would say a certain home has intelligence. If you were like this, if I had a son, I would say, “Take this one, young girl, because he is intelligent.” Yes. That's how intelligence came.
	IT COMES OUT OF A FAMILY? Out of a family.
Section 6	WHAT THINGS WOULD TAKE PLACE SO THAT PEOPLE SAID, “OH. THIS HOME IS INTELLIGENT”? Community respect, respect in the community. If you came and sat (in a home), there was food, the hosts receive the visitors well, praise would go on increasing until people chose your house saying, “Your family is able. So and so is capable of doing this work.”
	OK. Eh. It should just grow out of respect.
	Huh. Yes.
	OK. AND THIS CHIEF TENDET, DID HE...COME OUT OF YOUR FAMILY? But yes. My father is his brother.
	Ooh...OK. They were brothers.
	THEY WERE BROTHERS? Eh.
	And that chief? Huh...and the chief. At that time the chief was Mnupi Kabras...Maragoli. Wasn't it chief Mnupi? Do you know?
	No, I don't know. You were explaining. No, Kabras wasn't Chief Mnupi. Eh. It was Chief Amiong.
	AMIONG? Amiong was a Tiriki. There was Otanga from your home area. Otanga Maragoli and Sabatia. I've been there.
	IT SEEMS YOUR FAMILY WAS A VERY POWERFUL ONE? In this region, this family is the most well known.
	IT IS WELL KNOWN? Like Paulo Akoi from your area, isn't Meshak Akoi his son. And he is now the head there?
	THIS IS NOW THE CHIEF? Paramount chief.
	OK. FROM HERE...AKOI WAS FROM WHERE? Akoi was Maragoli.
Section 7	HE WAS MARAGOLI? Yes, Maragoli.
	OK. Paulo Akoi was a Maragoli chief.
	OK. AND YOUR OWN FAMILY...HOW...HOW DID IT GET TO BE SO WELL KNOWN? WHEN DID THIS BEGIN? Since a long time ago when there was fighting...they would organise the fighting, and go to the prophet, called a laibon.
	OK. Eh. A medicine man. Others call him a medicine man. When he sleeps at night he dreams. He tells people, “your enemy is on the way.” A prophet. And not a false prophet, but a true prophet. When he receives [a vision], he calls people by blowing horns, "too...totototo toto". Well, people hear the horns crying in the laibon's home and say there is something going on. People come from all over, and come in on that day to find out what is happening. He tells people, “Don't be slack. As I slept in the night, God brought me some thoughts and I dreamt that the enemy is coming. And they will follow a certain route to come and fight. If you see a black antelope pass before you, don't go. Come back. A black antelope. Hee...hee.” You cannot know how these antelopes are disappearing from the earth. Have you seen a black antelope?
	We just read about it in books. The Bukusu call it efisi.
	*Efisi?* Efisi, a black one, and another one is red. “If they pass before you, don't go to war.” He [the medicine-man] tells people, “Find a white bull and slaughter it. Pray, roast it, and the sacrifice of the trees...let's roast that meat here, and after you eat it, go, and go for good. Don't look back to your home. From there, go. And when the enemy comes, if the hand (?), go to war. But if it passes to the right. Don't go. You'll be killed. You'll be killed by the enemy. Eh. So if you are organising the men, you will succeed. Put medicine on the spear. That spear was tied to this belt here. Put medicine there and when you and the enemy attack each other, if your club hits his club, when he cries, his heart will lose strength.” That is what a laibon was. He was...
	SO THAT IS HOW THEY STARTED TO RULE? Yes. As leaders, each one had five followers. In the morning they would go and ask, “Old man, how did you sleep last night. What did you hear? What did God bring to your head, what did you dream?” He would say, “I saw such and such a thing, such and such, such and such. But he cannot succeed, we will defeat him.”
	AND DID YOU ALSO HAVE THESE DREAMS? No dreams have entered my head, or anything. They have never entered. You know there were some that would get dreams and then they became crooks. And began putting witchcraft on people everywhere. And then God decided, “Enough.” And the gift was taken away. And it ceased until now. But you know, this is like…do you know a mushroom that they call bwoba? I don't know what you call it?
Section 8	*We call it bwoba.* But the big one is obusuma.
	*The big bwoba?* Yes. What do you call it?
	*I don't even know. We just call it bwoba.* With mushrooms, you never miss [fail] to see a kisugu. There is an anthill which children...
	Kisugu...is... [An observer present at the interview]: Kisugu is an anthill.
	Oh...OK. He he he he. When you go there every day to see whether it has grown, you find that it hasn't yet. After one month and then two months, you go to look and it has now appeared. So you wrap a little bit in something.
	I know that bwoba. Then its leaves appear. So you cover your anthill. When you cover it, someone can't remove the cover. If he does, he has committed a big sin. There is a curse. So it (the mushroom) grows and grows. So you pull it out with its long leg. Then you take it, and you are the one who distributes it to others. Because once you have covered it (the anthill) with leaves, no one can uproot it. They'll say the person doesn't know tradition. He carries the sin to his own home.
	Now, if someone uproots it, what happens to him? If he uproots it, the owner of the anthill prays (evil on him and) tells him, “Go! Sin! Eat my wealth in sin. You know that I had covered it with leaves and you broke the rule. The sin will follow you.” Only prayers.
	OK. EH. SO, DID YOU TELL THEM ABOUT THIS LEADERSHIP HOW IN THE PAST, PEOPLE WOULD LOOK AT A HOME TO SEE WHETHER THEY HAD INTELLIGENCE. LIKE THEY CHOSE LEADERS IN THE LAIBON'S HOUSEHOLD. NOW, THESE DAYS, HOW DO SABAOT CHOOSE LEADERS? Ah. It isn't there these days. Even the laibon. They despised all that, saying, “Who can listen to all that.” People have entered religion, only God's book matters now. The Bible, that's all and nothing else.
	Do you think that is good or bad or...? You know...
Section 9	OR WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT? You know, when there are pleasures in the world, when there are no mistakes, your head cannot be alert in order to think, “What will they do?”. I just pray that He gives me the intelligence like they had long ago. God gives it, so that when I pray, I can receive.
	SO, YOU THINK THAT IF PEOPLE PRAY FOR THE OLD INTELLIGENCE, THAT THEY CAN GET IT? Yes, they can get it. Yet people come from everywhere to say, “so-and-so, I ask you for a head, where did you take the heads you used to have?” So if they pray like that, they can receive. Yes, you can receive. And then people come from all over to say, “so-and-so, prayed for his head, where did you take the intelligence you had?” So when she prays like that, you say, kill a cow and call people. I am coming to sing, so I'm asking that old man, we want you to sit in the laibon’s seat...
	SO DO THEY PRAY FOR THAT IN THE TRADITIONAL MANNER OR THE FRIENDS’ (QUAKERS) way? Traditionally; Friends is recent.
	OK. Before, it was traditional. We didn't see why we should only pray biblically. I live with the old customs. You make the fire. Heehee. Mothers wear their old clothes, when they wore metal and all that. She is transformed into the past. Huh. Yes.
	NOW THESE DAYS, WHO LEADS THE SABAOT? These days we have no leader. Only the chief leads according to what the government says. But there is no laibon.
	When you...when you think about this method of choosing leaders these days compared to the old way, which was better? Leaders?
	Eh. That is like...like the parliament way, or the chief or whichever? Do you think the method used in the past is better than today's or do you think today's is better? The old one. Once they agreed, no one had any complaints at all. But these days they use elections. If you have a person with 20 children and another with three children and this one has brains...Now they just elect a person through bribery. Not out of respect. Just bought with money. I see people uneasy with the leadership; they fall, and spoil the development agenda. They err because of elections. Before they would assess until the people chose someone capable.
	NOW, WHO WOULD CHOOSE? THE OLD MEN OR...? The old men...the old men. Old men and even women. A child stands here who is going to greet the other one and say, “You have been chosen. Lead.” Lead the country, not in the way in which people seek for votes. But the old elections. In the past, there was respect. Education. What I'm saying is, I could get to university and lack intelligence. No inborn intelligence. And they take the education to be what? Intelligence, because someone has studied, but he doesn't know how to lead.
Section 10	OK. Eh. In the past...people despise the people of old. They despise even father and mother. A child has no respect for his father and mother. That is what is spoiling this nation these days.
	Eh. And if this respect goes... If it goes, well now everyone will do as they please. Huh. Everyone. He doesn't want to follow what his parents or the old people tell him. Old men, his father's age-mates his mother's age-mates. Abuse now brings the biggest curse. There is now no leadership, there is no leadership anymore in this.
	And in the old days, if a child failed to respect his parents, what did they do to that child to mould him back to shape? If he abused another child or me, I can take the information to his father. His father assembles the old men and they sit this child down. “Why did you abuse this old man? What did he do against you, what kind of respect is this? You young people, come and look at what this one has done.” So now that prevents you completely, until when you leave there, you are like a fool. Even his mother says, “It would be good if he died. This is not a child, despising an old man like this, his mother and even his father.” So now they tell you to shape up through their words, and if you do wrong another day, you will be left to carry out your own development by yourself. Now we forgive you. “Have you heard this,” the old men say. “Yes. Have you heard well? Yes. Will you repeat it? No.” That is a child who could have some intelligence.
	And these days... They lack respect. These days, in this country people interact but there is no respect. Now, if you want the country to be good, sit the children down. If as a parent you see that your child is going off track, let a committee discuss it. The committee of old people which would restore the children, to help them [get back on track].
	Do you think the old men can come together even these days? The problem with children these days is that some don't listen to their parents. When you tell them they [say]…“In this country we know education, we know other what (?), the country is developing so why are some bringing us the methods of the past. These methods ended. You old men need to stop these ways of yours.” There are some that do that. That is what is spoiling the country and parents. The good children who live with their parents go to examine themselves and say, “You mean I was getting lost. You mean I was going astray?” So we need to restore the children, so that they don’t refuse (these old methods) as bad. You'll see some fall into shape well. Right? Even if one refuses, many will be restored [to the old ways]. But our country has no parents who will sit their children down. Children continue, and there is no forum for saying, “Young people, come today and let us explain about this country.” There is none. That is where the old men and the parents got lost.
	AND WHEN DID THESE WAYS BEGIN TO DISAPPEAR? Ooh. It has been quite a while.
Section 11	OK. Now, sir, you were explaining, huh about respect. I wanted to ask you another question on leaders. In the old days, were the rich men leaders...like if someone was wealthy? Wealthy! If he led it was his luck, but there are some wealthy people who don't know how to lead. There can be a wealthy person who despises the poor and says what can such a person do. Yet it could be the poor man who knows how to lead. But the people choose. And some of these children in the university, some of them had strife from their homes for a long time.
	Ok. Oh. That's how it was.
	Ok. OK. Huh. Now I want to take us back a little bit, to your education. Did you begin...did you go to school? We had home school. We built there and added a church.
	HUH. THIS FRIENDS (QUAKERS) CHURCH? Huh. Friends. Now, this church had Sunday school. On Sunday the children would study.
	WHO WERE...WHO WERE ...THE TEACHERS? The first teachers to this region were Bukusu. One was called Suleimen Osanya. Another Benjamin Omala and Chibuku. Tatayo and his team managed them. Even I was caught in the old days (to go to school). I also caught school children...the school heads.
	THESE WERE BUKUSU? Bukusu. And then my father came with a stick saying, “you are catching my child, who will tend the cows.” But they insisted, “We must take the child.” They left father struggling. He argued with the heads: “The children...you people from the schools do...” Another tactic was to take a wood plank. “What do you people think...I can also catch someone.” Yet he knows how to tie it down. And I had gone to hide from being caught. I went to hide there. And I saw my father making someone fall...
	YOU DIDN'T WANT TO GO TO SCHOOL? I didn’t want. I was following what father was saying. Then they made my father fall. Those teachers made him fall. I came with a stick. I beat one in the back and he released my father. And he caught me and said, “We are going with you now.” I told father, “You go home. I will go with them.” But the mistake he made was to repay the son (for the father's error) and he beat me on the back. I was very uneasy there. Well, I continued with them, catching people. There was a whistle, everyone had a whistle and they would run on the road, ...fitii...kureba ...tititi…kuresa...tititi…kureba. The whistle would blow and lead.
	*SO KUREBA* IS THE WHISTLE BLOWING?** Kureba is Bukusu...it means asking “who is it?”...I am ready, I am coming.
Section 12	AND WHERE DID THESE TEACHERS GET THE ORDERS TO CATCH CHILDREN? Chief.
	Chief is the one who... Our Chief Tendet. Said, “Catch those children so they can go to school.” That is why they [are] always cross, while catching children. Well, when I went to school, I understood my studies. The blackboard was a cloth. The Friends’ blackboard of the past was just a cloth. You would write on the cloth. When I saw that, I said, “You mean…you mean someone can write their name. When you write something like this, it is someone's name. So, so this school is good. Why do you write someone's name and it shows on the blackboard?”
	DID THEY TEACH YOU IN KIBUKUSU? In Kimaragoli.
	IN MARAGOLI? Eh.
	DO THOSE BUKUSU KNOW KIMARAGOLI? All know Kimaragoli. All.
	WHY DIDN'T THEY TEACH IN BUKUSU OR SABAOT? Well Kibukusu...the teachers came from Kaimosi.
	So, the teachers came from Kaimosi. But isn't Kaimosi in the land of Tiriki? So I'm asking why they taught in Kimaragoli not Kitiriki? There was a Maragoli called Daniel. Daniel Mutabi in Kitengei.
	WHERE IS KITENGEI? When you pass Kimilili you descend.
	OK. Hmm. We called it Daniel Mutabi's school. He is a Maragoli. He is the one who brought the Christian religion [to the area]. And then a white man came.
	THIS FRIENDS CHURCH? The Friends and then Mr Ford from America lived in Lugulu, the big station is Lugulu. Hmm, that is where I studied.
	OK. He stayed with us. I went there for each big meeting
	OK. And then we built Kaptala as the first.
	Hehe? Kaptala. Yes.
Section 13	HERE IN MOUNT ELGON? Yes, Kaptala.
	OK. Ooh. That is where the first school was.
	SO THEY TAUGHT IN KIMARAGOLI BECAUSE OF THAT FIRST MARAGOLI? Yes.
	OK. Kaimosi is Friends...
	Eh. The first one and the head is Maragoli, all the managers are Maragoli, and he left there and brought Lugulu.
	OK. Lugulu, here near Webuye
	I know Lugulu. Well, that is where, after Maragoli, Kaimosi. Kaimosi is what gave birth to Lugulu.
	OK. And then Lugulu now gave birth to the small Friends away from the main ones.
	Eh, eh? OK. It gave birth to Kaptola, Kimilili, Kaptama, Kimogoo - these are Friends.
	OK. And what did you think as a Sabaot who spoke Kibukusu and now you are taught in Kimaragoli? What did you think? They just taught. You struggle with speaking it badly, badly until you know.
	OK. Hmm. Until we understood.
	And did the Sabaot try to change that language, to be taught in Kisabaot or Kibukusu? These days...I'm the one who went there to Kakamega.
	Hee hee. When there were white men working in Kakamega, what is it called? In...
	HMM. SO DID YOU GO THERE? And I went there.
Section 14	To Kakamega. Yes, now there are even Sabaot books. I have some now.
	OK. HEE HEE? SO WHAT DID YOU GO THERE TO DO? To change our language (of instruction).
	Hee hee. Hmm.
	HMM. SO WHAT DID YOU TELL THEM WHEN YOU WENT? There was...we chose 16 people. 16, including teachers and we went and talked there and wrote, and they now went to change the books into our language. .
	Hee hee. OK. We now have those books. Now the children study in our language...they have begun studying in it now.
	NOW THE CHILDREN...WHAT YEAR WAS THAT? Eeh,..1986.
	1986? About 10 years ago? Yes.
	OK. BUT UNTIL THEN THEY WERE USING KIMARAGOLI? Yes. Kimaragoli. Here it was Kiswahili. Maragoli was used in the past, long ago. After that, it is Kiswahili. I said, so catching children [to go to school] has benefits.
	HE HE! Even my father was sorry for having beaten the teacher. We said, you mean we were doing something wrong?
	OK. So we continued. Even I caught children until the end. Now children have developed. There was an old man whose child they caught to take to school.
	HE HE And he brought a goat, a big male goat. “Take this goat, leave my child so he can go herd the cows.” I told him, “Old man, sell that goat and buy your child some modern clothes. I don't want to keep seeing these skins that were used long ago.”
	OK. AND IN THOSE DAYS, WERE THERE THESE [SCHOOL] FEES? In the past there were no fees. There were none. You would be educated for free.
	Eh! OK. I don't know whether teachers in Lugulu got their ... twenty shillings only.
Section 15	TWENTY PER...? Twenty per month.
	OK Our senior teachers.
	Eh. Hmm.
	OK. NOW I ALSO WANTED TO KNOW, WHEN DID THIS TAX BEGIN? Ai! Ai! These taxes began a long time ago. When the white man came, they began that taxing.
	AND THAT WAS...WERE YOU...WERE YOU ALREADY BORN OR NOT? Even I was not yet born.
	Hmm. That's when the tax began.
	AND WAS THE TAX PER HOMESTEAD, PER HOUSE OR...? That tax, the white man made merchandise out of people.
	Hmm. If you have 5 wives, you have built each one a house, the tax would be levied on each house [laughter].
	EH? Each wife's door.
	Hmm. Until people became afraid to marry. [laughter] “Because I will bring problems on myself.” You start paying rent (hut tax).
	AND ABOUT HOW MUCH MONEY WAS THAT TAX? 12.
	12? Eh.
	WHAT YEAR WAS THAT? I don't know...30?...it is 30.
	OK. From 1930.
Section 16	Hmm. Hmm. If you had 4 wives, each door, they say each of your doors must pay rent.
	SIR, WERE YOU MARRIED? Ai, ai! I was still a child. It was very long ago.
	When did you marry? 1936.
	1936? Let's say 1935. And I had this son in 1936.
	IS HE THE FIRST? The first.
	OK. NOW BEFORE ONE MARRIED, DID THEY HAVE TO PAY RENT? Eh. Yes, they were charged rent. Even when I went into that job, as the chief's clerk. I charged people rent. So they said: “Tendet, Chief you collect the rent. Samuel, president you take the criminal cases and civil cases. That's all.”
	And now like this, before we got Independence, did you hear about Mau Mau here? In this region there was no Mau Mau.
	Hmm. Where was Mau Mau? Kiambu.
	KIAMBU? Hmm. Only Kikuyu did that Mau Mau.
	Hmm. Because he (the Kikuyu) is the one who struggled. He even tried to please who? Dedan Kimathi.
	Hmm. He walked the forests at night. He walked wearing a leopards skin.
	Hmm. The government didn't want you to kill any forest animals.
	Hmm. They looked, “Is this an animal or? Dedan Kimathi?”
	Hmm. These people really put in a lot of effort so that Independence could come to this country. [AN OBSERVER PRESENT AT THE INTERVIEW]: HMM. AND WHAT DID THE PEOPLE IN THIS AREA DO?
Section 17	DID THESE ELGON PEOPLE STRUGGLE AGAINST THE COLONIALISTS? These Elgon people? When Eliud Mathu came...when he came, didn't he come right to my home?
	WHAT YEAR WAS THAT? 1938.
	Hmm. That's when...That's when Eliud...when Eliud who...? [AN OBSERVER PRESENT AT THE INTERVIEW]: MATHU And I ran with him, and we agreed all of us that the white man must go.
	Hmm. Some chiefs in the old days would collaborate with the white man. But we young people saw that what the Kikuyu were doing was right. We wanted them to give us freedom. And you are collaborating with the white man, didn't the white man come from abroad? You mean you cannot also get a King? Why? To rule yourselves. Even you look for your own King, like the King George of old. [laughter] So we continued imprisoning our great old men - Kenyatta, we imprisoned many people. Until Kapenguria. Until where? Seeking freedom.
	Hmm. When you arrested them, what did you do? We young men came together.
	WHAT DID YOU DO WHEN YOU CAME TOGETHER? We came here, me and my team went until Nairobi.
	YOU DESCENDED TO NAIROBI? Nairobi, to join up with the Mau Mau.
	AND YOU WENT AND ENTERED THE FOREST? No. By this time, things were almost close, close to being good. That is when we joined.
	WHAT YEAR WAS THAT? 1938.
	1938? Eh.
	OK. Hmm. And that is when we combined, and then independence came. And now Kenyatta came back, and we prayed to God and He helped us. And then Kenyatta ruled.
Section 18	Hmm. And he came touring until Kaptama, Kitale, Kaptale - until my home. Here in Kapsakwony. In the centre, I'm the one who put a garment on Mzee (Jomo Kenyatta).
	EH? Made of leopard-skin.
	Hmm. We sewed it very beautifully. It was pleasing. My young daughter Margaret stood on one side, me on the other. And then Mzee said, “Whose child is this? Samuel's?” “Yes.” “Yours?” “Yes.” “What is her name?” “Margaret” “Ooh, my daughter is called Margaret as well.” [laughter]. And he said, “Thank you, I will try to educate this child.” That's how I got acquainted with Mzee, until recently. And Mzee died. He was very good. He ruled well.
	AND IN HIS LEADERSHIP, WHAT THINGS DID HE HELP PEOPLE WITH? In his leadership, the big things were that first we got independence due to him. And for Mau Mau.
	Hmm. He had a lot of intelligence in teaching people. He even went abroad and learned things there. And when we got independence, we went abroad and a white man's daughter threw a rotten egg into Mzee Kenyatta's eyes! It burst in his eye, that rotten egg. We underwent a lot of trouble in this country. You see, people, now you tell people, “Love each other. Don't quarrel.” Like in Rwanda now people are facing big problems. So this country of ours, we pray to God that it be fine. Even if this Mzee (Moi) stays, we pray to God , just as I was saying, that “So and so's son is able.” Just slowly. That's how I want our Kenya to be.
	*And when Independence came, we heard that people would eat matunda ya uhuru* (the fruit of freedom). What fruit were these?** Fruit of freedom?
	YES. WHAT FRUIT DID PEOPLE VISUALISE? Fruit of freedom are many things.
	Hmm. You were called, “monkey, African.” That you are useless. Not a person. And the white man would eat eggs, fruit, good things, and would sit on a chair while you sat on the ground. And even if you are...you just sit on the ground. And I was being called a leader. And a very high up one too.
Section 19	Where is that? At the end of Mount Elgon. That area is very nice. The mountain is like money. You know Kilimanjaro, and Mount Kenya and Mount Elgon. Yes, it was I who directed the white men to get there. I help them get down, and then I go to a place called Meza. It was just like this door. If you just went...
	Even you a leader, a white man would sit on a chair while you sat on the ground? Eh, I would take a chair.
	And what fruit have your personally got from freedom? The fruit, you get your own head - president.
	Hmm. And there abroad, King George.
	Eh. Instead of King George, you have a president. Now I see with a president, with people free, they build a university and enrol in it.
	Hmm. Like you.
	Hmm. Before it was not for people like you. This is freedom. You are the ones now, who have become free.
	Hmm. You are the ones who have become free now. You children.
	Hmm. You should study hard, you are the free people.
	Hmm. That is freedom.
	Hmm. That is the fruit.
	Hmm. Haa! Who would study until they were admitted with a white man's child? Every person has their own road. They black person his road, the white person his tarmac road while you walk in the mud.
	Hmm. But these days, they walk on the tarmac. That is the fruit of freedom.
	Hmm. Eh. And now, you can do anything!
Section 20	OK. Haaa. And drive in a car. Nobody to prevent you.
	And do you think that fruit reached everybody? This fruit of freedom? [Tape unclear] The woman would kneel, drink a little bit and go. But some women, those very old ones who knew how to talk like an old man, and you would know that this woman knows how to talk, let her stay here. [An observer present at the interview]: So there was a level a woman could reach and be accepted as a man. There is a level like 80 or 70 years, or starting from 60 onwards.
	Hmm. And children like you could not. They would say, what has this child come to do here?
	SO WHEN DID DRUNKENNESS BEGIN? Drunkenness began when people migrated to Mumias, the Nubians from Uganda.
	EH? THE NUBIANS? The Nubians. Nubians. They were black people. From Sudan. They are the ones who brought this alcohol through Mumias. And Mumias was the first place that reigned from the first time the white man came to this region.
	Hmm. They came to Mumias.
	Hmm. OK. And they made this alcohol which passed this chang'aa (local, home-made millet Brew) called Nubian. [An observer present at the interview]: Oh, Nubian gin? And the Nubians are the ones who brought it, that's why it's called Nubian.
	AND WHEN DID THIS NUBIAN GIN COME? When Mumia ruled this land. When the white man came.
	Hmm. I don't know when the white man was in Mumias. I've forgotten that completely.
	*[An observer present at the interview]: And were there women in the homesteads who were very respected?* Eh. There were old men you could send, “call so and so's wife,” and you could send them with news. We call respect konyiti.
Section 21	Konyiti? Haa! Konyiti konyiti baba! Konyiti konyiti mama.
	THAT MEANS RESPECT...? Respect your father and mother.
	OK. And when the white man's chiefs came, did the women continue to sit with the old men? There was a big meeting, even the white man would say, “Call the men and women to come.”
	Hmm. The meeting would be full of people from there to there.
	Like how many people? About 70, 80 people.
	And when did the DCs (Disctrict Commissioners])begin? DC?
	Hmm. 1909 is when they began.
	*[An observer present at the interview]: And in those days, when you explain, it seems like the women were development minded. Do you feel that women these days are development minded or not?* Not. Our old women were the ones with development. But these days there are so many girls, they are full in the towns, when will they come to village meetings? All crooks. Only crooks.
	WHEN DID THIS CROOKEDNESS BEGIN? Well, you know that if a girl refuses to marry she becomes morally loose. One teaches another and so on until they all become crooks.
	*[AN OBSERVER PRESENT AT THE INTERVIEW]: SO HOW COULD THEY BE CORRECTED?* These girls, the bad thing is that they have no community like ours.
	Hmm. You could assemble these girls in Kapsokwony like at the DC's. In the meeting you say, “You should live like this. You're living badly. You children should return to the respect of the old days.”
	YOU SAID YOU WERE A CHIEF, MAGISTRATE? Hmm.
Section 22	*[An observer present at the interview]: Let's say a boy is brought to you, he has made a girl pregnant. What would happen?* Their parents would come. You are told, “Your son has spoiled someone's daughter. Young man, will you marry her or now?” If he refuses, he pays a fine of a cow.
	WHAT WAS THE FINE? A cow. Hmm. You charge them a find. A cow. And also a government fine. When we were there, you could charge 50 shillings plus a cow or a sheep. Two things would go to the girl.
	And these days... And these days, who and who will be brought? Girls are as abundant as the water. Before, you would guard her because you wanted her to get married. But now, whom will you guard? They roam around the whole town. What will you guard?
	WHY IS THERE NO FINE THESE DAYS? There is no fine. Pregnancy is just pregnancy. So long as she delivers her child.
	Which do you think is better? What there is these days is simply that it be known whose son made the girl pregnant. If she reveals that, they call the parents and discuss the issue. In the past, mothers would guard their children. They would take them aside and ask them, whether they were spoiled yet or not?
	SO WHAT HAS GONE WRONG THESE DAYS? Now, things have become crooked. Husbands...young men don't want to marry. Girls are so restless, they don't want to marry. They just go. Now this is a spoiled country. You don't get a chance to sit properly and they say, “Father, I want so and so's daughter.” Now, who will you ask for, when they are all over the place?
	AND WHAT IS MAKING THESE YOUNG PEOPLE NOT WANT TO MARRY? There are two things. Some young people like you study just as you girls have studied.
	Hmm. If an uneducated person, I come to marry you university-educated one, will you agree to me? Secondly, girls are too restless.
	Hmm. Like they keep making each other pregnant.
	Hmm. They deflower a girl and she becomes useless. And the young men are also restless, and these days a lot of disease has come in. This has really spoiled the country.
	Hmm. These days, everyone looks for a nice girl, but you don't know what her health is like.
Section 23	Hmm. Then after a short while you hear she has a husband. In two days, she is back. And she goes to someone else. In three, four days, she is back. She has already destroyed her reputation. People look at this, you look at someone and take someone else.
	Hmm.