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Mario

(MEXICO 13b)

Sex	male
Age	67
Occupation	farmer
Location	Tiltepec, Oaxaca
Date	27 April 1999

transcript

On Sunday, as it was getting dark, I went to visit Señor Mario. I found him chatting with his wife, sitting on a bench just outside his house. La Señora was in the doorway of the little wooden house they use as a kitchen. I greeted them both; we’ve already known each other for roughly a year and a half and I’ve been to speak with him on other occasions. Don Mario has two daughters living in Tiltepec, they are married to men from Tiltepec and his grandchildren were born here. His son lives in Mexico City where he is a private accountant. Don Mario originally comes from Teococuilco de Marcos Pérez and is a strong, robust man in spite of his age, although unfortunately time is starting to take its effect on his health, and his sight is bad. His house is made of adobe (mud brick) and is different from most in that it has re-barb (cement columns strengthened with reinforced steel) for reinforcement. In years gone by the village has felt the effect of strong winds; the roofs of the school and of some houses have been blown off.
After greeting Don Mario I explained to him the reason for my visit: to record an interview on his wide experience of coffee production and how it became an important economic activity in the community, where he arrived for the first time approximately 27 years ago. He gladly accepted and invited me into the first of two rooms that make up his house. I sat on a plank they use as a bench and he sat on a sack of corn that was leaning against a wall.

Section 1	Well, Don Mario, I have come to ask you a little about what you know of the history of coffee since it arrived here in this village. How did it arrive, how did the people accept it or did they take a long time accepting it as an economic activity, important for the village. How many years have you been living here, in Tiltepec? Well, I’ve been living here for, for 22 years, but I was coming here for four or five years before, to trade. I mean, I worked bringing things from Ixtlán or Oaxaca, to sell here...in exchange for coffee. I’ve had a coffee plantation since, since the year 73, thereabouts. I began in 1973...but [the crop] was very little, almost nothing, 5 or 6 arrobitas (diminutive of arroba - 12kg). Well we didn’t work with coffee very much at all, very little - very little. But shortly after I arrived here, in 77, then it became my life, working with coffee; I began with a lot of enthusiasm. Arriving here I asked the authorities to see where they could give me a little land to grow coffee and they pointed out the plot where I have the farm now. Thanks to God. Well, you see there weren’t many people in that area then, there was good land. Yes, and a few years later people began to realise, I explained to them all the time that they should get into coffee; it’s good money. Even though [it will be] little by little, in the long run it will help us a lot. And then as coffee here, well...a coffee plant lasts a long time - 70, 80, 100 years, according to what people say. Well, some people from here, who are now old, told me that there was a coffee plantation down there when they were young. They’ve grown old since then, and there the plantation is, as always. That’s why I planted it too. Well, I said to them, you’ve got to get into it - you’ve got to do the work, give yourself to the work, because a day will come when the road arrives here or coffee will have a good price and it’ll help us a lot. So that was my idea since I arrived here, what I wanted; coffee would give me money. So, as I said, that’s why I quickly got a good piece of land and began. And that’s how we began. Already in our first harvest, after three years I think, it produced about 3 arrobas (1=12 kg) a plant - that’s not bad. And that’s how it happened, quickly. The next year it produced 18, the following year about 70 arrobas, from 70 it became 160, 160 arrobas. So it was, little by little, even if, let’s say it went down a little and…but I couldn’t harvest it all myself, maybe half, though sometimes that was too much for me. Yes, we’ve had 120-130 arrobas every harvest up to now. How big was the area you harvested?
Section 2	It was about two hectares, two and a half, thereabouts.
	And how many coffee plants? Well, it would be around 2000 plants, around 2500 plants, about that. I planted them very close together because I didn’t know how to grow coffee, about 1.5 metres-2 metres. When the plants started growing there wasn’t enough room, they needed more space, so now in places I have 3–3.5 metres between them.
	Between every plant? Yes, every plant. The plants produce better like that, I mean the plants grow and the branches double, and that’s how I have them, that’s how I have them. Later on I put in another thousand. I reckon I’ve got about 4 hectares, that big. But I don’t pick it now, not now, just a little, but you can’t find workers now, they all have their own little plantations now. Little plantations? Well, now they have. We’re not talking about 5 or 10 arrobas (1=12 kg)- no, now it’s 30, 40, 50, 60 arrobas, each one. All the young people have plantations now, yes everybody has one now, which is why [I’m short of labour]... because in previous years I could find workers. They came to cut, I gave them money or, if not, a share [of the harvest]; it was customary to make three shares, two for the boss and one for the person who came to cut, three bags. That’s how it used to be, but now, now it’s half [to the cutter].
	Half? Now it’s half, really! And they still give the cutter his coffee and food. What food? Just tortillas (maize-based flat bread). That’s the custom now. Now it isn’t...it doesn’t go in three parts any more, no, it’s half now and you still can’t get a worker. There are no workers any more, and that’s why. In this harvest they only collected 24–25 bags for me. Well, a bag is more than an arroba, but my wife and I, we work at times. Well, we got something, we got over 100 arrobas this year, this harvest. And I don’t have much strength for work any more; I mean I can’t work. No.
Section 3	Do you manage to collect a good amount? Well, there it is, in the other room, what I bagged. Because a while ago it was very little, 10 or 15 arrobas. I’ve already sold 30-35 arrobas and I still have 100, which I’m going to sell.
	So you’re saying that you were one of those who started coffee growing in Tiltepec? Well... Señor Isauro already had some but he didn’t harvest much, that’s why I used to go for a week with him to...the plantation, we finished quickly. Well it was small, half a hectare, about, maybe less than half, a quarter. So between three, four workers, the work was finished in one week. But when I arrived here, as I said, I put in a thousand plants straightaway and another thousand the next year, and like that, well, very quickly, I got ahead of my friend quickly and then I was doing well.
	Where did you bring the coffee from? The plants? Yes. Some men from here went to get me the plants, some Señores who know where to look for the seedlings. So I paid them 20 centavos (cents) a seedling and they brought me, well one day it was two-thirds, 500 plants, 500 seedlings. And then I collected a bit from all over the place because there were seedlings all over the bush, the wild turkey (Penelope purpurascens) and squirrels brought them, they sprouted and now there are seedlings. Before, they were everywhere but now you need to go looking for them. But not the people who already know that there are areas where there are some old plantations, where there are a lot of seedlings. And so in the year 77 I got some good land and I bought the seedlings because I didn’t know where to get them, it was a lot. But little by little over the next few years people began getting into this, and it’s good, very good, because now it’s helping them. And as I said, now everyone has his 30–40 arrobas.
	So, are you pleased? Well yes. I’m pleased that everyone has become interested, because everyone now has [coffee] because it’s good for them. If we didn’t have any, what would we live off? And everything can be bought here now, everything that comes from Oaxaca, everything. Coffee is the reason the people have merchandise to sell here and people come here to sell, you can buy everything here. Why? Because there’s coffee! Now I see how the people with their animals get together. Every Saturday, every Saturday they set off with their animals to sell coffee, and coffee in quantity!
	And before were there places to sell it? Before, no; not really. That’s why, as I said, when I arrived here I... I used to buy coffee myself. I bought a bit as I had four mules to carry it, 100 kilos each mule; well that’s 400 kilos a week or every 15 days when I came here to buy. Some I bought and some I exchanged for merchandise that I brought. I brought salt, soap, essentials, or something to eat, some fish; like I said, I sold everything.
Section 4	Where did you buy it? I bought it in Oaxaca. You came here all the way from Oaxaca? From Oaxaca. I used to leave the animals in Ixtlán. When I got to Ixtlán I made them carry [the load], and then [again] on the way back. So I made up the load here and with the coffee I went to Guelatao. They bought [coffee] then in the INI (National Idigenous Institute), in Guelatao. That’s where I went. Sometimes I went to Oaxaca to drop off the coffee at the FINACIERA (development bank?); they bought coffee from us there.
	*Was the FINACIERA* a government organisation?** No, I don’t know...but that was its name...that’s what people called it, Finaciera. It was where el abastos (Abastos market in Oaxaca city) is, they bought the coffee there but you had to go to the centre [of the city] to get paid. I went there twice. Afterwards I only went to a private trader, I mean Señor Don Pedro; some people in La Luz know him. We had to take the coffee to El Portillo, then a truck came to take the coffee and us, and we went to Oaxaca. The Señor wasn’t there when we arrived either; they called [to say] that he was in Mexico City and that yes, he would buy the coffee when he returned. So, eight days later we were able to do the return journey to Oaxaca again and yes, he bought our coffee but at a lower price. So it was hard to sell the coffee, it took two journeys, but it sold. Other people from here went to Yagila or Talea but with just a little coffee, one or two arrobas (1=12 kg). One just goes to Talea once in a while; it’s far. They began buying in Yagila shortly after; that’s were we sold the coffee. I started selling there because then I only had one animal and I couldn’t go as far as Oaxaca. I couldn’t go after I arrived here. Before, yes, I dedicated my time to the journeys but later on I became busy with the plantation, weeding it at least twice a year because the plants were small and the weeds came up quickly.
	On what type of land do you plant coffee? Well, in this area, mostly in the gullies...on the flat parts; in the gullies it doesn’t matter that there are big stones, the coffee really takes on! And the soil is fertile. Coffee grows on the slopes too, for example, here in the yard, although it doesn’t grow so much [there], it takes longer to produce. And in hotter areas, below, the gullies are quite flat, and that is where the coffee really grows!
	Where it’s hotter? Where it’s hotter, hotter, and there’s a lot of manure.
	What were the people living off when you arrived here, before people commercialised the coffee? What was the economic activity? Well, what the people here worked was corn, beans and then panela (unrefined sugar), a few made panela, well that was it. Some people grew chilli but not much, very little. I did this when I arrived. I planted one they call Chile de Onza, which is very hot; it grows very well in Tierra Caliente (literally hot lands), above Rio Cajonos. I grew this for two or three years…harvests I mean. I got one or two bags of chilli and sold to the people who needed it. I went to Yagila to see who wanted a kilo, two kilos, half a kilo. But to say what work there was, well there wasn’t much, it included all types of chillies, panela, beans, and corn. So that’s what the people did. It was good that some people had cattle but in those days jaguar caused a lot of damage, they often came here to visit the cattle.
Section 5	Did you have many cattle? No, I didn’t. The people, because I, well... I didn’t have cattle. I bought some cows later on but it didn’t go well for me because they need a lot of land and you have to go to tie them up daily, give them water three times a day, you get tired of it. And it takes a long time to gain anything from them, not like coffee - in three years it begins producing and the harvest increases every year. And when you only have to weed once a year you get a lot of time off. One can clear land, grow corn, beans and chilli or plant some sugarcane, all this. That’s the thing about coffee; it’s very good because a plant lasts for along time, for many years. It’s just a question of weeding and harvesting and one can dedicate oneself to other work because it gives you a lot of time.
	Of all the work you have now, which do you like the most? Well right now all the hard work...I dedicate myself to coffee. Just coffee. I’m not planting, I have... last year I didn’t plant; the year before last, two years ago I planted a hectare but it gave very little, it didn’t last two years. I mean the harvest didn’t come to much and now I don’t work in this. I gave it to one of my sons-in-law. I told him, “Go and work these fallow fields I have, they are new and will give a lot of harvest. You have children now and there are always things to buy them.” And he planted a bit and got some good crops. I went there with him, like a worker. And as the custom is to give a bag of corn to every person that goes to pick, me with my Señora, we got two bags. Now we have around 10 arrobas – there’s around 12 arrobas in two bags. So I did this for three or four days, and we don’t use much, we’re just two now. So that’s how we are now. I’ve bought almost no corn – maybe 10 almudes (old measurement equivalent to 4kg) – and now we’re at, well, now we’re coming to the end of May. And as I have a donkey, well, I rent it out to the men with farms so they can bring in their corn. They arrive in the afternoon with the donkey and the payment for the donkey, two or three almudes, and with this I get by.
	Is it enough for you? Yes, I get by on this, both of us do. And then the coffee, well, when my sons-in-law go to La Punta taking coffee, they take the donkey. They take the coffee in case there’s anything they need, whether it’s for a little bread or soap, whatever they need, so they take it, I almost never go there now. So that’s how it is at the moment, thanks to God. I’m glad the village has got into coffee; it’s why everyone has some money now.
	Well, that’s good. So, if coffee earns good money for the people here in Tiltepec, do you think people will still need to clear the forests? Exactly, exactly, that’s one of the points very...yes, it helps us to stop clearing the forest a lot, because, as I said, this...With what’s been happening to me, well I didn’t need to clear the forest...I don’t even farm my fallow fields, why? Because with coffee I have enough to support myself. Well, I hope the rest do the same because one can get by with the land that’s now overgrown, which our forefathers worked. It’s just that the village is growing, so the new people are forced to open up a little bit of forest to...but now it is just a bit. That’s what I would like to say, explain, to some of the people from La Luz. They have so much land! And they are still going to that side to clear the forest - such precious places! I don’t know what they’re thinking, because we’ve got an idea, well we’ve worked over there. Like me when I was in Teococuilco, the land we have over there is worked year after year, since our forefathers [came] - who knows when they first came to farm that land? And that’s how we work; we use animals and we plough twice and then, in May-June we make the furrows and begin to sow, and yes it gives, it gives a harvest. There are just two things you can do to help the corn: one is weeding, first, and then after comes the [job of] “piling up the earth”, as we call it; you heap the earth on top of the field so it’s damp and it grows well. Because I worked like this, that’s why I’d like to...talk to the people from La Luz, because we have an idea of how to work. That’s how they should work that land you see over there; they shouldn’t leave it like that, they shouldn’t clear so much forest, because how they’re doing it now isn’t right.
Section 6	Do you think that the people from La Luz would understand it’s for their own benefit? Well probably, yes, probably. Because they are also people who understand and see reason, and they know it because the old people saw it in Atepec! Yes, it’s the same; Teococuilco is a little bit that way and Atepec is here, so, well, we do the same work, them and us. That’s why, I say to my wife, if I were a little stronger, I have some land down there below the road to La Luz - it’s flat, I said to her, it’s land for ploughing. It would produce two harvests a year, year after year, because it’s good land. But the thing is to put a little bit more work into it because it needs ploughing with the animals and like that it will give a good crop. There’s no need to clear the forest, cut down more trees.
	Do they have a lot of land too? Them from La Luz? Well, everything you can see over there, those fallow fields, it’s all fallow fields and now they are abandoning them and opening up more forest and then they are growing a lot of coffee too. I think they’ll understand, if we explain it to them really well and…because it’s for their own benefit, that’s how I see it. I hope they see sense, that they change, put themselves to work a little bit more in these fields they’re abandoning. Well, instead of leaving them they should plough them; we’ve been working for how many years! We’ve farmed the land year after year, without fertiliser, and it gives a good harvest. That’s how it will be here too. Moreover there’s no lack of water.
	Is there a lot of water? Yes it rains here. Over there, no, well, sometimes there’s no rain for a long time, but nevertheless it gives a good harvest. And it often rains here; the plants don’t suffer.
	Why do you think there just is little water there? In Teococuilco?
	No, here in La Luz. Ah! Well it’s...because it doesn’t rain as much, I mean, as before. You can see the mountains are becoming...for example where the fires were last year, well, my God! In one go they became bare. That’s probably why, that’s why it doesn’t rain as much as before, that’s why. As I said, when I arrived here about...about 27 years ago I started coming here and it rained a lot then.
Section 7	Did it rain every day? Yes, I mean sometimes it could rain for up to 20 days, day and night. We couldn’t do anything, one just went out to check on a donkey or animal one had. Ten days, a week, day and night, my God! It really poured. That’s why one rested a lot, the rain didn’t let off. It’s changed a lot. It’s changed a lot; it rains less now. Now is the time of year when a lot of rain falls but no, it’s rained just a bit, nothing like before.
	How long do the rains last, during the rainy season now? Well it doesn’t rain much now, a night or two and that’s it, just two or three days. It’s not like before, 10, 15, up to 20 days sometimes! Day and night, day and night, it would stop for a bit and then come back. It’s changing now, as I said, I think...When I lived below La Luz there was still forest they hadn’t cut down yet, a little later they finished it off, they cleared all these areas. Tiltepec is still the same as when I arrived. It’s almost the same; they’ve begun clearing in a few places, but just a little, a bit. I don’t know why they’ve cut so many trees when they have begun coffee plantations there on what they call “Sarmiento’s farm”. As I said, it’s better. I hope they start to think like I do now, that coffee is a good living. And more because I couldn’t pick my entire crop, I only collected half the coffee. The rest is still out there. We have coffee ready for picking now, it’s waiting to be picked, if one were healthy and strong for work, well, it’s money too. Fifty pesos a tree, well it’s something, yes, it’s waiting to be picked.
	Are you in an organisation of coffee collection? Well, I wanted to be, yes, I joined MICHIZA (an organisation of coffee producers). But as Señor Isauro didn’t take any notice of them I joined up later. But I saw that, as we say, there is always criticism and jealousy so I said no, it’s better that they carry on, and without saying anything to them I stopped taking part, and that’s as far as it went. That’s why I only go with traders now, a little like that, I’m not with an organisation any more.
	But you were part of many, or was it just one? Yes, I joined MICHIZA for a little while and INI for a bit, because they also came to give or to leave money so that one could work, or could sell coffee to them, I think that... I’m not sure how much it was, the fact is that I, I think that for 20 hectares they gave me 500 pesos (Mexican currency). But no, they didn’t give it to me, it wasn’t true, they didn’t return to buy the coffee or so that we could give it to them, not until 94. Then they told us to give them the coffee and then more aid directly for producers would arrive. Well, as I was the agente (elected community head) then, I told the people who were listed that they owed this money, those that had received the 50, 200 pesos, it was no more than that. I got more as I had the production, I mean I had to get the coffee. So it was good to receive money ahead, well I got quite a bit, so that’s how come they gave me 500 [pesos]; those who got it only gave that back. I don’t remember well; it was 2,050 pesos between 14 or 15 people. I went to Guelatao to drop off the money and they took notice of us there and were going to help us more, with some direct help. So I started going to all the meetings they had in Guelatao and they paid attention to us. We agreed they would give us 700 pesos, about 2 hectares for every producer, or pair, because some had half a hectare, one or two hectares, or three or four hectares. But in the meeting it was agreed, they set it at 2 hectares, straight, and that’s what was given. So the first grant was given to me and I brought it here, well it was 700 pesos and I arrived with that for the people who were on the list, who had already recouped/retrieved/received [?] money. Those that hadn’t recouped/retrieved/received [?] money, well they didn’t want to join. So we had to make another list of new members. In other meetings that I went to it was agreed who was going to join, who were going to be new members. So here in Tiltepec there were 21...22 - 20 men and 2 women - with half a hectare, but as there wasn’t much money left, it was now only one hectare for every producer. So then there were another 21 hectares that were given, that were received here, in Tiltepec, from the new members. I also went to bring back the first grant and this was given to the new members and as they said in the meeting 100 pesos from each person was discounted for the savings account, so they took this off. In the case of the second grant a committee for the savings account had been formed so they went for this money. I didn’t have anything to do with it, because now there were people in charge of this: the committee. So it was noted that with this money and the second grant that arrived, which was for those of us who had the two hectares - they gave out 700 to us all. They had some more for the people of the new agreement, and they took off another hundred pesos so then it was 200 pesos [from each person] in the savings account. Also they returned the 2,050 we paid at first; the INI gave it back. Well a cheque arrived and the people from the savings account took this too, so there it is now, I don’t know how. Well now I don’t get myself into this any more, I moved aside. I don’t get help from PROCAMPO (Programa de Apoyos Directos al Campo; government programme of support to “the field”, ie rural areas) any more, nothing. This way the people don’t say I’m trying to get lots of money; I don’t like people to think badly and criticise me so much. It’s better like this. I thank God that I have a little coffee plantation and it doesn’t take up all my time.
Section 8	And you said that women also took part in coffee cultivation? Yes, there are two women, Señora Carmen and Señora Aurora. Their husbands had plantations when they were well and healthy; for example Señora Aurora has her husband but he’s very disabled now, he can’t see and they have their plants, good plants. That’s why I said to them that it was OK, so that they would get a bit. Because they have their plants and so it was justified and I was agente (elected community head). That’s how it was for these two ladies, but it wasn’t possible for the rest, there wasn’t a big enough budget for all the people.
	And was the savings account for everyone in the village or just for those with coffee? Well, it was just for those who grew coffee or who were listed but then we decided that the money should stay in the savings account for the whole village. We can’t take out the money but we do have the right to collect the interest – because it’s generating interest – and we agreed that the interest would be at 3 per cent. Well it’s been years that the money’s been there now; I don’t know how much there is. I remember it used to be 8000 pesos, and that was then. I don’t know how much there is now; that’s how it is, as they say. Well now it’s being forgotten. I’ve heard that Señor Teófilo is still in Guelatao because he is the treasurer of the savings account.
Section 9	And did you ever use chemical or other types of fertiliser on the coffee? No, it isn’t customary for the people here to use fertiliser - manure, yes, but none of that, just the pure force of the earth. I remember that once I used one, I don’t remember the name right now... It was for killing the weeds but then I realised it was damaging the plants, some became very sad looking. Well, as they became dull like that I don’t use that any more, just [use] the machete (big knife); I got some more workers and just [work with] with the machete. Those chemicals damage the plants; it’s better with machetes, nothing happens, the plants are green all the time, there’s production.
	Is production good these days? Yes, well, I don’t go out to see other places, but they say that all the plants bore heavily this year. Because last year the harvest was small, but this year they were bearing like never before. They say it’s because of the heat, the earth heated up and the plants liked it. With the land being humid it didn’t dry up in the heat; on the contrary the heat was very good for the plants last year. This harvest was better, as I said, the plants that I have bore a lot; the plants had never produced like this year.
	So coffee is a good economic activity for Tiltepec and also for stopping deforestation, right? Yes, it’s a big help. As I said, that’s why I hope that everyone grows more coffee and they won’t need to clear the forest. Plant 2 or 3 almudes, half a hectare - one hectare, something to help the family that grows corn. There’s no need to open up more [forest] because the coffee helps.
	Well, Don Mario. I won’t take up any more of your time, I’m going to see how many go to the meeting and talk to them a bit about the work we’re doing, about what we’re interested in knowing so it’s of benefit to the village. After we have studied, brought together and ordered the information, well, we’re collecting all the information so it’s beneficial to the village. As you said, it’s good, everyone has coffee now, as you said all the families have their little bit of land with coffee and they go to sell it, but I think that some don’t have much. Well, very few, not many don’t have much coffee, most work with coffee now. I’ve heard that some don’t grow corn any more because they have enough with coffee. They support themselves selling coffee and buying corn, like that. For me coffee is very favourable, profitable, because as I said, it [makes] more money and from that one can buy everything one needs. I don’t work with corn, I don’t even consider growing corn now, no, just coffee. A plot of land, and with that it’s sufficient. I have my fallow fields over there and they’re becoming overgrown. I have that one by the road below La Luz – a flat, lovely place, it needs clearing now. I haven’t farmed it for eight or nine years, and another piece that I haven’t farmed for 15 or 16 years. And why? Because it’s not necessary. Now with coffee, just with the little farm...one single farm [I have enough]; I don’t have various pieces of land, [just] one single little farm, and [I work] with that and no more.
	That’s very good, well, Don Mario, I must go now, so thank you very much. Well, we’ve talked a bit.
	Yes we did. Thank you for your time.