GLOSSARY
Mexico glossary

Javier

(MEXICO 9)

Sex	male
Age	22
Occupation	farmer
Location	Tiltepec, Oaxaca
Date	19 June 1999

transcript

On Saturday 19th of June 1999, I went to visit Señor Javier Morales. I found him working on the reconstruction of a chicken coop beside his house. We greeted each other and he in his typical kind and friendly manner invited me into his house where his wife Señora Nieves and his three young daughters were. We passed through to the small kitchen which is made of tejamanil (traditional rough pinewood planks or roofing tiles/shingles) and in which there were the characteristic features of Tiltepec kitchens: a wood-burning stove made of adobe (mud bricks), a comal (flat pan or griddle) for making tortillas (maize-based flat bread), and beside that a metate (traditional grindstone) for grinding corn. Above the stove was firewood in the form of a small rustic “second floor”; on top of the firewood lay pancles de panela (blocks of unrefined sugar, about 4 kilos in weight) wrapped in sugarcane leaf and piled up in a pyramid. They say that they stack the firewood there so the heat of the stove keeps it dry as the climate is very damp. There was also a little table with small chairs.

At 22 years old, Señor Javier is very young. Last year he was a member of the municipal council; he held the position of secretary in the police force in this community. He distinguished himself by his initiative, dynamism and brilliant ideas. Sometimes he came with us on the trips we took in the country, taking the role of guide and helping us in the sampling of plants and vegetation. I explained the reason for my visit and Señor Javier enthusiastically agreed to speak to me. I told him we would like to talk about the forest; its importance and the impressions he has of the changes it has undergone.

Section 1	Well, we are here with Señor Javier Montaño? Morales.
	Morales Montaño. Yes...Morales Hernández
	Morales Hernández. Yes.
	Yes, sorry. It’s just that’s how we know each other. Yes, right?
	Just by first name, right? Yes [laughter].
Section 2	Yes, are you from here, Don Javier? Yes I’m from here, from San Miguel Tiltepec.
	Are your parents also from here? Yes, they’re from here.
	So, all your family are from here. Yes, all my family are from here.
	And the Señora (Javier’s wife), is she from here as well? Yes, she’s also from here.
	Doña Nieves [referring to Javier’s wife]... Nieves, what is your name? Hernández Montaño.
	Nieves Hernández Montaño, good. How old are you Javier? I’m twenty-two.
	Did you go to school? Yes, a little.
	Here, in the village? No, I went to Yagila, for about two years.
	Two years. What year did you study there? The fifth grade of primary school.
	The fifth grade, ah, because here it only goes up to the fourth grade. Up to fourth grade, yes.
	So has the school here only gone up to fourth grade for a long time? Yes
	Always? Yes, always.
	That’s why you had to go. Yes, we had to go to...
	To be able... ...to be able to study a little bit more.
	Umm, yes, so you didn’t continue? Not after that, it’s that we needed things to, to be able to manage, because my father had some problems with his sight and that’s why we couldn’t continue studying.
	I see, yes, and do you have many brothers? Yes, we’re five brothers.
Section 3	Five brothers, who are they? That... Zacarías and Marcelino, Gilberto. And that one – Urbano.
	Ah, and Urbano. Yes, and me.
	Yes, you look very much alike... Ah, yes... [laughter]
	...the brothers, don’t you have any sisters? Yes, we have one but...she lives over there, near Ixtlán, that way.
	Oh, over there. Towards Atepec.
	Ah, in Atepec? Yes, in Atepec.
	Right, and the other brothers live here? Yes, we’re all here, the five brothers.
	And have they all married already as well? Yes.
	And do they all work here...in the country? Yes, in the country.
	And you too? Yes.
	And what is...what is it that you do, or, what do you grow? Well, I just dedicate myself to growing corn, and I make a little panela (unrefined sugar), and that’s it, and a little bit of coffee.
	Oh. Yes
	*Yes, well you have enough panela* there, right? [signalling at the panela stored above]** Yes [smiling].
	*When did you go to make the panela?* At the beginning of March.
	March? Yes.
	How much did you make? How much is that? About ten cazos (large metal pot, saucepan).
Section 4	*Ten cazos!* Yes.
	That’s a lot. And how many days’ work was that? No, well, ten days.
	Ten days? Yes.
	*So, in one day you make a cazo.* Yes, one day, half a day, well, we do it by the hour.
	By the hour? Yes.
	That’s what you were telling me, isn’t it? In the day you cut the sugar cane...Yes.
	Early and then the night is when.... And the next day we have new panela, yes.
	Does your wife go with you too? Yes.
	Does everybody go, all the family? Yes, all the family. Yes, and we find more workers to work in the day, yes.
	Where is your farm? Over there... above Señor Carlos’ farm. Over in tierra caliente (literally, hot lands).
	Ah, there. Yes, over there, yes.
	Yes, we’ve gone there before. Yes, really?
	Once we stayed at Don Carlos’ farm. Oh, Yes.
	Over there nearby. Yes, that’s nearby.
	Well, it’s near the farm, but from here it’s far. Well yes, it’s near the farm.
	Well, Don Javier, we were talking about how... you now see...what the forest is like, what the mountains are like? Yes, as I said to you, well it’s that, what happened to us last year, that hurt us a lot, because of the fires, because of not knowing how to obey the orders that the community authorities give. Well yes, back then in April they told us that the people who live there, above the agencia (community office), all over that way, well they almost didn’t have any water to drink, because of... the fires, because the source of the water is over there and all this area was burnt and they almost didn’t have any water to drink – well, just, they just managed to get water, and that’s how we were. I was saying, I told you about when the people from SEMARNAP (Department of the Environment, Natural Resources and Fisheries) came: they said everybody must conserve, everybody. Yes, yes, we said, but what happened is that in the meeting we said a lot of nice things and [after] arriving home they took their chainsaws – those that have one – and [off] they went. And as I said, that’s not conservation. We just talk about conservation and we take our axes and cut down trees; the people who have dogs go hunting and that’s not conservation. And well no, in my view, well no...no more, no more. No, no, I don’t agree with what they do, because first they say we have to conserve, and after that – no, no, we don’t know how to comply, well...
Section 5	Yes. Well almost since we first saw the mountains, well, they were prettier before than they are now, well, now...everything is changing.
	A moment ago you just told me about... what they did...that they set it on fire up there... Yes.
	*...that there were fires because they didn’t follow the comisariado’s* (community official) orders** Yes, the comisariado.
	Why, what orders were given? Well, the comisariado said to us - last year at the beginning of March, or the middle of April - he told us not to burn [anything] before the rains because, to control a fire – if were to start a big fire – well, we couldn’t [control it] any more. We would have to mobilise, to mobilise the village, and he made an announcement, well, but the kids, more than anything because they are just kids, the ones who did this, they started the fire, on this side and the one on that side.
	Here by... Yes
	What’s it called over there? Of...how...
	Where they set fire. Well... I don’t know what’s it called in Zap...Spanish, but…
	What’s it called in Zapoteco? It’s Lu crus kantediú.
	What? Lu crus kantediú.
Section 6	Lu-crus-kan-te-di-ú? Yes, that’s it. And finishing this slope and on to the plain, to the other crosses that are up there, over there it’s called Lu crus x (d)belebén. All of that area was burnt.
	And there on the part...leaving the village, the high-up area? Yes, leaving [there], on the high area. And over there, as there’s a spring a bit below, and as it got burnt above – and that’s why the poor people didn’t have water to drink.
	And on this side that you call, by El Chapulín? No, below, a little below.
	By the stream? Yes, over there.
	Was the fire very fierce? Yes, it was. They almost had to get the whole village working to be able to control it. Yes, that was what the comisariado (community official) had told us, and well, almost everyone had to sow in the middle of June last year; everyone waited for the rain so they didn’t cause any damage. Well, these kids had to do what they wanted, but they couldn’t control the fire and they had to, had to, it had to burn all these areas and here too, yes. That’s what, what we did, we didn’t do as we were told, even though some high-up people came here - they told us to take care of our forests. Well, as for me, [I feel] it’s nice that they came to help us. But knowing how to respect [what they said]? Well, we there were in the meeting and then we took our matches. Well no, not any more, no, it isn’t right anymore.
	But you said it was the younger people. Yes, they were just youngsters.
	Just kids. Yes, my brother, Urbano went.
	Urbano! And Don Miguel from up there.
	Ah! Dona Gregoria’s husband. Yes, and that Facundo, Emigdio’s brother, they are almost all... Just the Señor is grown up, yes. They are young - well, I don’t know why, they probably didn’t take it in, they don’t understand, who knows why... in the end they did what they wanted.
	But isn’t it because they are still young, they don’t know how they should clear the land, so it doesn’t.... Yes, right, ...
	Yes but...
	Was it that? Well I think that it was probably because of that. Well I don’t know why, because as I told you there was a notice and...and in the...yes, in the middle of April the comisariado (community official) said that we weren’t going to burn yet, so as not to start fires, but they didn’t obey him, they did what they...
Section 7	…wanted to do? Yes, that’s why, last year, it was [like that]; they had to bring lots of people to control the fire that was in this area...
	And was it very difficult to control? Yes, it was very difficult because we were almost... the whole village was over there for two days, and it lasted almost a week here. But…but the people were saying that there were agreements now not to burn, and these kids behaved badly...as far as...taking matches, and then well, as we’ve just said, over in that area… Well, but as this area is more dangerous, what if the fire had gone up and crossed the road, there are more pines up there, that’s why they had to get the whole village to come to this side, to control it.
	And when you controlled the fire, how did you do it? Well, with machetes.
	With machetes? You have to cut the tree roots, to the ground, very low, yes, so that the fire can’t spread. I went on until the night, they were up there last year to...we were up there for two days and one night to control the fire.
	It was strong. Yes, [just] because of one, because of one kid, I mean well, for not following the rules of the authority, we had to get the whole village working.
	You were lucky you could control it. Yes, we could control it but...yes well [it was] very, very difficult, it was very difficult because at this time there was a lot of wind, we just stopped for a little...and we got close and the smoke almost overcame us, because the smoke was very bad, at this time, in the morning. And the afternoon was when it was more or less under control [so we were] able to continue cutting the roots so it didn’t spread more.
	So you cut the trees that were burning. Yes.
	They are the ones you cut. Yes, the trees...if the trunks were rotten we had to cut them and throw them where there was most fire, to stop the fire spreading more.
	So, that’s how you do it. Yes.
	So then, that’s how you do it. That’s how we did it last year.
	Yes, because last year the dry season was very strong. Yes, it was very long, almost three months I think, around four months.
Section 8	Yes, so that the fires started early, didn’t they? The fires... Yes.
	Earlier than normal, because in other parts of Oaxaca there were also a lot of fires. That’s what...
	They almost destroyed... Oh, yes?
	For example in Chimalapas, in Chimalapas there were also, there were a lot of fires and they were...in the forest...just imagine, the people started fires, really? From above because... Oh yes?
	And it was very difficult to control, it took a long time, and well, a lot was lost, wasn’t it? No, well, with fires yes, we lost a lot of what we had, and what if there is a pine forest over there, everything will be lost.
	Well also, yes, the pines are also important, aren’t they? But also, also the other part of the forest because...they are both important, aren’t they?.. Yes.
	Well, they have to be taken care of then, well that’s what I think. Well, yes.
	Because if not, you see, like you said, an area was burnt and now there’s nothing up to there. Yes, that’s what happened, because they don’t know how to look after, I mean...yes.
	Yes, also you told me that, because of that it is very different now... Yes, it looks very different now.
	...from before... Yes.
	That now the mountains look more... Drier.
	Drier Yes, they look drier now, because before, well...
	Yes. Yes, it looks drier. All of this area still looks green now, green, and that part well, now, because of the fire, well, now, now it looks, now it looks more, more...
	Ah yes, and Don Javier, how do you see it, is this season different now to the last year? Yes, now it’s, it’s different now, it wasn’t so hot.
Section 9	Now? Yes now, it wasn’t so hot [this year]. Last year yes, yes it was like...like four months I think that...it was very hot last year.
	And it didn’t rain. No, it didn’t rain.
	It didn’t rain on the date that... that it would have rained.
	...that it would have rained. Yes, because in years gone by it’s rained here at the end of May, around the 15th or 20th of May it rains but...last year it was almost... the middle of June when there was a downpour.
	Last year. Last year.
	But until the middle of June. Yes, [not] until the middle of June, that’s why we all sowed on the 20th, 25th of June we were sowing last year, yes.
	Oh, yes. And also...well, and now it’s...how can I say it, now did you began planting on a different date? Yes.
	Like before? Like before.
	Like you did before the fire? Yes
	When did you sow now (this year)? Well, a lot of people sowed in the month of May.
	In May? Yes, the month of May, almost everybody - because, as it started to rain, it wasn’t dangerous (risky) any more...it wasn’t dangerous any more like it was last year.
	But now...,umm, I thought that two years ago, I thought it rained, it rained more than it does now, didn’t it?. No, it’s raining more now.
	More now than two years ago? Yes, it’s raining more heavily, there’s rain almost every afternoon.
	Does it always rain so much? Yes, yes, this is what this season is like.
Section 10	And do you think that...it’s also because of a lot of land clearing, because there’s a lot of deforestation - do you think that this also has something to do with the dryness? Yes.
	...and that there’s no rain? Yes, well, if we continue clearing the pure high up forest, I think that within five or six years it won’t rain any more. Yes, because that’s what’s happening in other areas. Yes, because to say...there are times when it rains locally, sometimes it rains here and not in caliente, that’s how it’s getting hotter and hotter there.
	*In tierra caliente.* Yes.
	Is it raining there now as well? Yes, it’s raining there.
	So, what you think about the importance of conservation, Don Javier? Well, I think that it is better to conserve, to continue living as always. Yes because...if we don’t protect [the forest] I think that within two or three years it will be very different; there will be very little left. No, not any more, not any more, it won’t continue like it is now.
	It’s disappearing, really? Yes, it’s disappearing.
	Also you told me that many people go hunting. Yes, no, well...
	And that they have chainsaws too. Yes, to cause destruction, that’s what they are doing, they have chainsaws and, well... We were in a meeting saying that no, we aren’t going to cut down trees or hunt any more. Well they don’t take any notice. Or there are others or some people when it’s the season to...let’s say in April and May when the sun is strong, and they dedicate themselves to catching fish, well...
	Umm..? They go fishing in the river and throw in dynamite; well, that’s how everything is being finished.
	Really. You’re telling me that they use dynamite? Yes.
	In which [river], this one below? In the one below, the River Cajones.
	In the River Cajones. Yes, to catch the fish.
Section 11	*What type of fish: bobo?* Yes, bobo. And that is what...well, there are some people who say we must conserve everything. We shouldn’t fish or clear the forest or hunt anymore, some [say], but some people don’t take any notice. They don’t take any notice of the agreements we make in the meetings and they don’t follow anything.
	And do many people here have chain saws? Some.
	Not everyone? No, not everyone.
	And when they go to get trees, is it for...how can I say, for their own use... Yes.
	Or is it to sell? For some, well... Some people sell it because, when somebody needs [wood] he says: “Can you get me some wood, please?” “Yes,” “How much will it be?” And they arrange a price.
	Yes? Yes.
	But it’s not often? Or is it… No...
	It’s often? ...it depends on who needs it. If they need planks or beams, and it depends on the type of wood they need. They go to see the man who has his chainsaw so that he cuts the wood.
	From which area here, in the village, well the forest really, where do they go to get the trees? No, well, over there, way over there, where Señor Isauro has his farm. That’s where the pines are disappearing.
	What’s it called, in Zapoteco? Gía’(d)táu
	Gía’(d)táu? Yes.
	Ah. Gía’(d)táu, that’s where nearly everybody goes to get wood.
	Just from there? Yes, just that area and they get more tejamaniles (traditional rough pinewood planks) over there, where...for...below Chapulín Hill.
Section 12	Ah! Yes, over there is a small place of pure pines, that’s where they go to get tejamaniles also to build houses.
	Do they go very often? Sometimes. It depends on the capability of each one of us as well. There are some who build a house with laminated sheets now and they don’t take the wood any more.
	But normally they take what they need... For themselves.
	For themselves. Yes.
	They don’t take more... more...
	more than they use. Yes that’s it.
	Yes, because that’s the problem too, isn’t it, when sometimes people cut trees that aren’t just for themselves... Yes.
	...but also to sell, I think that’s where the situation gets out of control, isn’t it? Yes that’s where it gets out of control. Because, well, when someone needs [wood] it’s [different], because of necessity, and necessity obliges us – well, we have to cut down trees, at least one.
	And, for example, when they go hunting, where, more or less, do they go? It depends on where they have their farm, really.
	Okay. Depending on where they have their farm, that’s where they go. They kill nearly all the animals that they find on their way or wherever.
	But when they hunt, it’s just for their own consumption. Yes, it’s for themselves.
	And it isn’t very common. Well, for some, but for some not. It isn’t only what they find in their path, they do it all the time. They go until, until they find what they want.
	And what is it that they mostly hunt? Well, deer.
	Ah, deer. Yes, also wild turkey (Penelope purpurascens), and coati (raccoon-like mammal, Nasua narica) too. That’s what they go to hunt.
	Do you think that now there are more or fewer animals than before? No well, they say that before there were many animals, but now there almost aren’t any, because as I was saying people are always killing them, and well that is where the animals are disappearing, yes.
Section 13	People said that there use to be a lot of tapir (large, odd-toed mammal), right? They say that there are a lot but we never see them any more, we don’t even know what they look like.
	Now it’s hard... Yes, it’s hard to find them.
	What other animals don’t you see much any more? Well, the... wild pigs (Pecari tajacu), we almost don’t see them now.
	Not any more? No, they’ve almost disappeared; that’s why we don’t see them.
	You also told me that people go fishing sometimes. Yes.
	Do they fish often, or is there a season in which there are... During the dry season, really.
	That’s when there are fish?Yes there are...no, there are fish all the time, but the river grows [in volume]...
	Ah, yes. Yes, the river grows and that’s when it’s worth going fishing every day.
	And which in months, roughly? It’s the months of April and May.
	And do many people fish, Don Javier?Well a...a lot because...well no, they go quite often, almost every day, yes.
	You said they sometimes use dynamite to... Yes.
	...fish. to fish.
	Is that everybody? Yes, everybody because there’s no other way to catch the fish.
	Do you think it would be possible to fish using a different method, which isn’t throwing in dynamite? I think so. Using something called atarrayo (a type of net).
Section 14	Really? Yes, I think that it could be possible but it’d depend on each one...
	Yes. ...of those that like going to the river.
	*Because before, do you know how the antiguos, as you call them - the forefathers - used to fish?* No.
	No? No, no I don’t know how they used to do these things.
	Umm, do you go fishing sometimes? No.
	Almost never? No, I don’t go because… [laughter].
	It’s very far? It’s far and it’s also very dangerous.
	Yes? Yes.
	But the fish is delicious. Yes, it tastes good.
	Yes. And, Don Javier, do you know all the regions here, around Tiltepec? No.
	No? No I don’t.
	Is it very big? Yes it’s very big, but I don’t know it.
	So, which parts do you know the most? Well, just where I go to work and small areas besides.
	Around the farm... Yes, the farm.
	*...over in tierra caliente.* Yes, I just know that little bit.
	Tierra caliente, and past there, towards Yagalaxi, do you know it there? No I don’t.
Section 15	Have you never been there? No, I’ve never been.
	And in front of here. What’s this area in front called? We call it Sála Yeegú.
	Sála Yeegú? Yes.
	Where the waterfall is? Yes.
	Have you been there? No, I haven’t been.
	But everything around up to Machín, do you know this? Yes, more or less.
	Machín, Chapulín? Yes.
	Yes you do. You also told me that this area is opening up a lot. Yes, you can see very far where [the forest] is disappearing. Yes, it’s disappearing because the people don’t have respect.
	Yes? Yes, they don’t have respect, they don’t obey.
	Who are you talking about? The people from La Luz, they’re the main...
	Do they plant the same as here? Yes.
	Yes? Yes, the same but, well, we don’t know how they do it. In one, two or three harvests and that’s it, it doesn’t come (grow) back like, like before. Just ferns grow up now; just pasture comes up where they worked.
	Where they plant, what, corn or...? Corn, corn or beans, yes.
	Ah, yes. And do they also have coffee? Yes they do.
	Yes? Yes, they work with coffee.
	But not as much as here? I think it’s almost the same.
Section 16	But here, for example, I’ve seen that the coffee plantations are in the village, on the way out... Yes.
	...more over there on the farms. Yes, and those over there are getting into it. There aren’t coffee plantations in La Luz, they all work here, on this side to be able to plant coffee.
	Ah, so this is also why they are opening up this area ... Yes.
	...this area. Yes, that’s why it’s “opening up” in this area.
	Okay. And, did your father teach you everything you know about the land and sowing?Yes, my parents; my father and other men, because as I was young when...that bad thing happened to my father. [He’s referring to his father’s loss of sight due to river blindness, which is almost endemic in the region of Rincón where Tiltepec is.] And I hardly worked with my father, more with other men...
	Ah. ...I went out to work to be able to...well start working.
	That’s why it’s important to learn, right? Yes, it’s important to learn but...you have to look for a way to learn.
	So, what you sow is...is what, corn? Yes, corn.
	And what else do you sow? Beans, a little.
	Beans. And sugar cane too.
	Yes, cane. Yes.
	Yes, you have your panela (unrefined sugar).
	*Yes [laughter]*
	It’s very delicious, isn’t it? The... Yes.
	...panela It tastes good.
	*And is it just for your own consumption? [Signalling to where the panela is.]* Yes, it’s just for us.
Section 17	*Ah, okay. And do you have an official cargo* (unpaid community position), Don Javier?** Me?
	Yes. This year?
	Yes. No, last year...I gave in...my cargo.
	What were you last year.? I was the municipal secretario (community secretary).
	Ah yes, that’s right. Yes.
	It was our turn to be there. That’s right. Now I’m free, we’ll see what happens next year.
	*Are there many [cargos] you haven’t had yet?* Yes, I’ve still got many to do.
	Many. Yes.
	*And do you have take on every cargo?* Yes, you have to do, well...yes, you have to do all that is, that are the cargos. Yes, because if we don’t do it, well they won’t let us live in peace.
	Right, and what do you still have to... Almost all of them.
	*And what are the cargos* here?** Well...all the members of authority. Beginning with topiles (junior cargo position involving running errands and keeping order), and the síndico (senior officials, next in authority to the agente), the suplente (deputy), the agente (elected community head) and...the education committee.
	Umm. You have to do all these cargos...to be a good member of the community.
	*Also to be alcalde* (high-ranking cargo official)? Yes, the alcalde is almost the most important; it’s the most important cargo. If you get to be alcalde you have almost finished.**
Section 18	Ah yes. Yes.
	It’s the most important. Yes, it’s the most important.
	*And is it important for you to take on these cargos?* It’s very important to be able to...because, if we don’t do it, what will we say to our children? What advice will we give if we don’t fulfil the obligations we have as village members?
	Yes, also it’s very important, also for good organisation of the village... Yes
	Right? Yes, so we can organise ourselves well. Yes, because if we don’t do it, well, no one will pay attention to what we want to say in the meetings, yes, if we don’t fulfil our cargos.
	*Also, you have to do the tequio* (obligatory, unpaid community work), right?** Yes, the tequio, it’s everything.
	Everything? Yes, everything to be able to live well.
	*And, mainly, when you do tequio, what are the main activities that you do?* It depends on the authorities’ orders, they coordinate the work and then people do it.
	For example, the roads... Yes.
	And also... We have to clear the roads, everything. When the authorities tell us “we have to build”, well, they are the ones who arrange it to be able to start the work.
	Ah, right. And if you don’t go, what happens? They charge us.
	They charge you? Yes, they charge us, they charge us a fine, if we don’t pay it, well, they lock you up.
	In prison? In the prison.
	For how many days? Normally 24 hours.
Section 19	Oh! 24 hours. Yes, 24 hours.
	Is this respected? You have to respect it at any rate, when we were very disobedient – well, anyway you have to have respect; if we don’t... the topiles (junior cargo position involving running errands and keeping order) will probably come to beat us up, then more will come and more punches.
	Ah, right. Yes, but as long as one is, is very...everything is up to date with what the authorities say, well the authorities don’t say anything to us.
	But I can imagine that there are some people who don’t comply, right? Yes, well, there are always some negative people.
	*Yes, but is doing the tequio* always good?** Yes
	...because...it helps that... the community is... Clean.
	And well kept. Because other people come here from different places and see how the community lives. How... how it’s respected.
	Yes. Yes, they see if it’s clean or dirty, they all come to see.
	Although it’s principally for your benefit, isn’t it... Yes.
	...for the community, I think that’s more important. Yes that’s the most important.
	*Yes, for the little ones [signalling at his daughters playing beside them].* Yes, for the children. .
	And...Don Javier...Have you gone down the new road that opened to La Punta... Yes.
	...from la Luz. No, well, since they began to...since the plaza was started down there. Well, I go there whenever I need to buy a...some things, I go there, because they are the agreements we made in the meeting, and there’s no need not to follow it.
	What agreement are you talking about? That, we made, we made an agreement to open a new road to there so we can do our shopping there, in La Punta. Yes, that’s what we agreed and...and, well, it was made in a meeting so I respect it, because it was in a meeting. It’s not like it was [made] in a bar to not be able to respect it...
Section 20	Ah, good. Yes.
	So it was because of this, this agreement... Yes, because of an agreement.
	...made in a meeting. Yes, an agreement that’s taken in a meeting has to be followed.
	And why? Because before you used to go to Josaá, didn’t you? Yes, we used to go to Josaá but what...because of many problems and...to avoid the problems we had to look for a way, like, so we can use what’s ours. Because when we went to Josaá we took our donkeys, but the people over there didn’t want to see our donkeys there in Josaá and that’s why the new authorities that began were obliged to think of a way the animals can go well.
	Oh. That’s why we made the agreement to open the new road, so we can go shopping over there.
	It’s recent isn’t it... Yes.
	*...new? Exactly, and it was with the tequio...between you all, that it was opened...* Yes.
	Right? Yes, between all the village people, even the old people took part.
	The old people also took part... Yes.
	*...in the tequio* or is it up to a certain age?** At times, it depends on the officials.
	Oh yes?Yes, there are some officials that don’t say anything to them, and some who tell the old people to help a bit, even if they only do half the work of a man.
	*And so, from what age must you do the tequio?* Um no...I mean...it’s not a set age... we have it because of what one does...what we do here...well. Because if a...boy let’s say doesn’t want to go to school anymore, well we give him one year to make sure one and the next year they put down his name in the list of ciudadanos (citizens) and he becomes a ciudadano.
	*Yes and I can also imagine that when you marry or have a family you become a ciudadano,* even if you’re young.** Even if you’re young, yes.
Section 21	So there’s no age... No, no set age.
	...to begin to... to work, no.
	Okay...so that’s why, now...returning to what you were telling me about. Returning to the road you opened. Is it close to another road that’s being built? To what?
	*I don’t know the road La Punta.* No? You haven’t been there?
	I well, I haven’t been there, the rest have... Already been.
	Have already been there, I’ve been as far as the last section of the road. Ah, right.
	I’ve been that far but I haven’t... You haven’t gone past.
	Not yet, I’ve been along that road that goes to La Luz, but as far as, beyond Yégu..? chúpa...chúpa...what? Chúpa kuá
	There. Oh, yes.
	I’ve gone that far, but I haven’t... Ah, yes.
	...been further, and do you think that this road they’re building will help you? Well I think so, well yes... well, in that it helps, it has already begun to help us a lot, for the shopping that we were going to do there. It has begun to help, yes.
	Right. Yes, we were just waiting for more funding so we could advance a little bit more, now we’re getting a little closer to finishing our work.
	Yes. Yes.
	So, is there much left to do to finish it? Yes, a lot.
Section 22	Yes? About eight miles, or seven.
	Oh. Yes.
	Yes, there’s a lot left to do. What do you think are the other benefits the road might bring, apart from transporting your goods? I think that there will be other benefits from the road. Because when the road arrives some people will begin to build houses or...other things.
	For example there will be more... Cars coming.
	...and the health team can come more often, right? Yes, everything.
	And you could get your clinic. Yes, with time it could help us in other ways, [but] not so fast.
	Yes. Yes.
	Yes, you could take your goods out, as you said, what you grow, right? Yes.
	...and you could sell your crops. Yes.
	It could happen. Yes. It could benefit us a lot. As it gets closer.
	Yes. Yes.
	Do you think that it will bring...it could bring you...other benefits that aren’t so positive, or, what bad things could it bring? No, well, [laughing] ...yes there are, it could cause us some damage because sometimes...[laughing]…people come as, I mean...they come, like from the Electricity Company, from the Electricity Company, well, if there is a road and we don’t pay our bill, they’ll come to cut off the electricity straightaway. It could hurt a bit too. Good and bad, yes.
	But what’s most important for you? That there is a road? Well the most important thing is that it gets here, yes, so, so we don’t have to walk carrying our goods.
	Ah! Yes.
Section 23	It’s true, it’s quicker now. Yes, it’s quicker, and you don’t suffer so much carrying.
	Yes. Yes.
	And do you think where the road goes it won’t affect the plants there are and the forest? I think so; it’s going to have an effect because where it will pass is untouched forest.
	Oh. Yes, it’s not been touched where it’s going to go.
	There are streams too, aren’t there? Yes, there are streams.
	Do you think that the road will be able to pass the streams? Yes, I think so...they will be ruined, they’ll be destroyed, yes.
	And have you discussed this at any time, in a meeting...not so much the negative things, but what effect it could have, like the damage... No, not yet.
	You haven’t discussed it. No.
	Do you think that it would be good to begin doing so? Yes, I think so, well, to...to know how [to prevent this], so it doesn’t cause much damage.
	Yes. Yes.
	Because you...would you help over there, at a given moment to...do some work?Well, I think so.
	I think it would also be a question of...taking this into account, don’t you? Yes, taking this into account, well... to be able to discuss how not to cause a lot of damage.
	Yes because it would be...it would be important. It would be important to...discuss how...to make a beginning to...to not harm the forest.
	Yes. Yes.
	Because this part of the forest is still very pretty, isn’t it? Yes it’s pretty, but it looks bad where the road passes, with the landslides, with everything, yes.
Section 24	The landslides, what landslides? On the road, where the big machines pass. There’s quite a lot of damage there.
	Oh. Yes.
	And are there many trees that you use, or that you know have a use, there? No, almost none, but there’s a lot of fine trees.
	Oh. Yes.
	They’re big, aren’t they? Big, yes.
	But as you say, it’s important to have the road, the... Yes, it’s important.
	...a main road. It’s important that it gets here.
	You have been requesting [a road] for a long time, haven’t you?Yes, years! I don’t know when they began to take steps for the road, and it still hasn’t got here. Are you going to continue insisting that...? That it arrives
	Yes? Yes.
	Yes, Don Javier, do you discuss with people...the young people like you...about the problems that there are with... the forests, what they think? No.
	Almost never? No, no, no I haven’t talked to them.
	Well, I’m asking you because you...are young... Yes.
	...and because of what you’ve said to me, it seems to me that you are interested, conscious that we should...on one side protect the forest. Yes,
	To be more aware of what...of what should and shouldn’t be done, or to do it in... Yes.
	...moderation. To not destroy more than is already destroyed.
Section 25	Yes. Do you worry about it? Well yes...I worry that there shouldn’t be any more damage, because to continue destroying more, what will we leave for our children, if we finish everything there is, yes. That’s what I worry about, not destroying anymore.
	So, do you also see the formation of a group of people, a committee to supervise the forest, as something positive? Yes, I think it is, it’s necessary to appoint a committee to...where decisions are made and to be able to keep watch on the forest...
	Yes. ...it’s necessary for...that’s where they could probably pay attention or [else] they will continue like they’ve always done.
	Yes, but now there would be a way to control it, right? Yes, I think so, by just appointing a committee and agreements are made, I think that it will be more or less controllable.
	Yes. Yes.
	I mentioned this because of the committee that has just been set up... Just been set up.
	...the comité de vigilancia (watchdog group) Yes.
	Yes, you were at this meeting, weren’t you? Yes, I was, almost all day, all the meetings...
	Really? ..there have been, yes, I was there on Sunday.
	Yes. Yes.
	Do you think that the rest of the people from here will collaborate with this committee? I think so. Well, that’s why they accepted it.
	Yes. Yes, because it isn’t at all bad, but actually quite good, to be able to protect what we have more. If there isn’t a group saying that we can’t kill animals anymore or cut down trees or clear the forest anymore, well, we will continue as always... It will be finished and...What will we do tomorrow and the day after? Yes, and the animals, everything will be quiet, we won’t hear the sound of the birds. We almost don’t realise what we are doing anymore. It’s good that we have this committee now and...the people will have to respect what it says.
Section 26	Yes, well let’s hope it works out well, right? Well I...that’s what I’m hoping for, just that it works out well.
	Yes. Yes.
	And will the community cooperate too? Yes, this is what has to happen: both the committee and community are going to be working together, yes, to be able to take control. Because if not, I’m sure everything will be finished. Yes, it’s good now that they formed the committee, to protect the little we have left.
	Yes, it would be good. Let’s hope that the people from this community and the neighbouring communities also realise... Yes, right.
	...how important... I think so, probably.
	*...how important it is to protect, and are supportive. Yes; well Don Javier, I think we’ve finished talking, for today [laughing].* Yes, really?
	Yes. No well, there’s nothing to say, thanks... [laughing]
	No, on the contrary, thank you, for giving me a little of your time. No, it’s not a problem, when there’s time, one should talk.
	I’ll come to visit you later, probably to visit your wife before... Ah, yes.
	..another time No problem, go ahead.
	Thank you very much. Well, thanks for speaking with me [laughing]
	When we finish this you will have... Yes.
	...everything recorded...like Rafael explained in the meeting... Yes?
	..all the interviews, what interests people, what they could do, to see the problems there are and be able to... Yes, right.
Section 27	...between every one, mainly this, to communicate to everyone and share, it could be very positive... Yes.
	...that everyone knows what the others think. Yes.
	It could do some positive things, as you said, the importance of continuing protecting the forest... Yes.
	Which is still quite a lot... Yes.
	Yes.